Dog Colours/Genetics

[FakeMiddleton]

Hello All,

I'm looking at a pup (KC reg pup) and the dam is a chocolate and tan, the sire a cream.

The two pups in the litter are Black and tan.

I'm possibly being paranoid after breeder horror stories, but is this genetically possible? The sire's mum was B&T and dad a red. The dam's dad was a choc and tan, the dam's mum a silver dapple and tan.

Yes, very much so

Amazing niche knowledge! Was surprised I got a response.

Another breeder said she had KC pups...but wouldn't give me the KC names of them nor the parents saying she was scared of people stealing her pedigree details for their own pups. That's poppycock, right? I could do that with any random KC advertised litter

*so I wouldn't get their KC details until collection day!

I had the KC names of sire and dam before the dam was pregnant so I could determine if I wanted to meet them. So I would expect to be allowed to review the pedigree, breeding coefficient , prior litters etc.

which breed is it?

Bollocks. She should have those details to hand - there’s being cautious then there’s being ridiculous. You should be able to find her on the & KC website if she’s legitimate - they have breed registers.

FWIW, one of my dogs sires was BiB at Crufts. Bitchs father also won BiB. Long line of show champions on both sides. Even with pedigree like that, (on top of excellent hip and elbow scores) I saw the paperwork and the puppies multiple times. People really try it on and you have to be so cautious.

But to your initial question - yes genetics absolutely work like that. It’s like with people. I have green eyes but both my parents and grandparents have blue eyes.

Is the pup a dachshund? The colours sound like it!
I don't understand the breeder's reasoning for not giving the KC names to you before you pick up your pup and I would be wary about paying for a KC reg pup without proof that the litter is KC reg.

It is indeed a dachshund

I reported that breeder. Couldn't even find her name on the KC list either!

Thank you everyone for your help!

Sorry, me again!

Can you have a legit KC reg dam (and a KC sire albeit let's say he's a stud) but you're not a KC assured breeder?

A breeder I've found advertising her pups on the KC website has full clickable lineage, but I can't find her when I search for KC assured breeders in her area

Not all breeders are assured.

Assured just means they’ve had some home visits to make sure it’s not a puppy farm. But that doesn’t necessarily mean they are ethical/breeding the best pups/care about animal welfare etc.

KC registered

KC Registered and KC assured

Two different things :)

I knew these would be dachshunds, its a minefield! I have two of my own. You can get recessive genes that pop up in litters, so it doesn’t sound odd to me but as another person said you really need to check kc wise. Most very good breeders have waiting lists, if pups are readily available sometimes pays to be cautious. Recommend longhaired ones, they are a little more chill and not as overbred as shorthairs!

Genetics are complex. In Labradors it used to be thought the it was simple - black dominant to chocolate and yellow, chocolate dominant to yellow - but it's far more complicated. My black had a chocolate mother and yellow father and the breeder said all the puppies would be black. She was right and referred me to a website that sets out all the combinations and outcomes.

Adopt don't shop

KC assured and KC registered are two totally different things.

Yep, the mum and dad are KC registered (I have their names and so have clicked about on CoI and their lineage on the KV website). The pups not yet - only a fortnight old so not suspicious to me yet

Registration can take a while to come through. So just wait until it has so you can check online. No good breeder will withhold the names. It is possible to fake KC reg (I've seen a very poor attempt!)

Oh come on. Not always possible.
I wanted a specific breed(wire haired dachshund) for the breed characteristics, is that not ok?
Of course it is.

A bolt on question for you knowledgeable lot, please.

If a pup is endorsed for no breeding or export, is that a red flag?

It's a KC reg pup and I wouldn't want to breed from it, just have as a family pet

Both pup and the parents are PRA clear. Pup's CoI is 10% and the parents 4% and 12%

No. It just means they don’t want you breeding from it.

Gently though, if you’re such a novice dog owner you need to ask this many questions, I really don’t think daschunds are a good idea. They’re not easy dogs - and are prone to behaviour issues - as well as costing a bloody fortune in vets bills.

Thank you. I've had Dachshunds before, I just never had to find the pup.

The parents didn't win Crufts or anything so I'm worried the endorsement is because there's a genetic issue they don't want being passed on further

Endorsements are usually because the breeder wants to have some control over what happens to the puppy. This can be a bad thing (doesn't want anybody else ever breeding from those lines, which ultimately will narrow the gene pool) or a good thing (doesn't want anybody breeding who doesn't know what they are doing, or uses a dog that is entirely unsuitable; doesn't want the dog being exported to a random unknown person). A good breeder will tell you, in writing, what you need to do to get an endorsement lifted. My young get dog came from a very good breeder who endorses all her litters, but who also lifts endorsements when appropriate.

This website http://www.doggenetics.co.uk is an absolute time-sink for anyone interested in the inheritance of colour etc in dogs. It has a whole section on tan points. There are a couple of breeds where tan points are not a 'recognised' colour, but in which the genetics are carried by a very small number of dogs and so, extremely infrequently, a tan pointed puppy is born.

Endorsing is a way that breeders can control their lineage - it’s a contractual agreement almost from the kennel club and the breeder that says if you breed this dog without consent then the puppies cannot be KC registered. It protects them from people breeding their dogs as much because a KC bred dog is worth more on paper than a non KC dog and therefore it is supposed to put people off trying to go ahead and breed. It isn’t fool proof but it’s not a red flag IMO, as it shows they don’t want their family stock dogs to go onto be bred which is stupidly common in breeds that are popular at the minute as some owners buy puppies thinking in a year or two it’s a quick way to cash grab and have a litter or two.

Isn’t merle “silver dapple” an issue in dachshunds?

i can’t remember the precise genetics but am fairly sure the merle gene is associated with health issues, and any dogs with the merle gene avoided.

that would be my red flag anyway and I wouldn’t proceed.

have you looked into insurance costs? Dachshunds have a serious risk of back issues so insurance is ££££££££, and unless you’re willing to just put the dog down if it has a problem you can’t not have insurance as the vets bills are also £££££££.

A single copy of merle shouldn't present any issues.
Double merle is another thing altogether.

The other health issues with Dachshunds would put me off, though. Not fair on the animal, never mind the cost.