Breed suggestions for hiking and running

[brownbear201]

Hi all,

I'm starting to think about a possible breed for my next dog. I'm curious as to what suggestions everyone has. I currently have a small terrier. Please bear in mind that all the exercise I'm about to describe I will only undertake with an adult dog, not a puppy.

We're an adult only household and work from home, so someone is around most of the day. I do, however, want a dog that can cope on its own for a few hours whilst we go for a meal or to the cinema or something. I am very active- I enjoy long hikes of up to 15/20 miles across the Yorkshire Dales or Lake District fells. I am also very interested in Canicross. I run with my current dog. I'm a fairly average runner- 26 minutes or so on the flat and 29 ish on hillier trails for a 5K. But with a young dog (once it is fully grown of course) I would be interested in doing some speed sessions and longer runs to get (hopefully) faster. I'm only running once a week at the minute but I would like to increase this with a new dog to around four times a week. On a daily, non-running and non-hiking day I can commit to 2.5-3 hours of exercise, mostly off lead.

I want a dog that is not going to be too tricky to train to be off lead and one that has a prey drive that can be controlled. I live in Cumbria so avoiding livestock is impossible- they're everywhere! Obviously, I'm not expecting to walk the dog off lead in a field of sheep or something but it needs to be able to stay calm in their presence when on lead.

Ideally, the perfect dog would also enjoy playing fetch and swimming. It's not 100% necessary but I would love it if the dog did enjoy fetch and swimming.

I trained my current dog in agility, but I've lost interest in agility tbh. I might take it up with a new dog for fun but I certainly won't be competing. I'd be interested in training scent detection/tracking for fun. My main interest is Canicross and long distance walking and I would like to be able to race with the dog. I'm not serious and have no interest in coming first but would like the dog to enjoy that sort of sport and enjoy pulling.

The main 'issue' I have is that I would prefer a smaller dog. I don't drive and thus, I rely on public transport to get about. I'm very good at navigating it and I've done hikes and runs across the country using trains and buses. I need my dog to be able to cope with that sort of environment- often busy and noisy and stopping in urban areas sometimes. There's not much room most of the time and a larger dog wouldn't be able to comfortably fit in trains and buses. I also prefer smaller dogs. My neighbour has a working Labrador that is lovely, but I don't think I could cope with the drool. I could probably go up to about Border Collie size. Grooming doesn't bother me.

My main contenders so far have been a Working Cocker Spaniel or Border Terrier. On paper, the cocker sounds ideal. Perfect size, usually likes running and hiking (and pulling!) and likes swimming/fetch games. But I'm a bit concerned about the potential for separation anxiety in the breed. Resource guarding is another concern, albeit more minor as we are an adult only household with no kids in the future planned. The Border Terrier also sounds ideal but I'm a bit concerned about the potential for high levels of prey drive. My current terrier has little prey drive, he doesn't even chase squirrels! But I know that's fairly abnormal for a terrier. I'm also a bit concerned about the potential for reactivity and general feisty-ness towards other dogs.

The only breeds that are a hard no are bull breeds like Staffordshire Bull Terriers. Bad experiences with them, I'm afraid.

Any other suggestions that I've forgotten about?

Thanks!

@FloofPaws oh no it wasn't, sorted if it appeared that way!
I don't know anything about Samoyedes other than they look incredible.
But what I know of Huskies tells me you don't want them off the lead near sheep but they needs tons of actual exercise like planned running to keep them lean - not many Husky pets look like Huskies are meant to look like because they are not exercised properly and enough.

Agreed. I would never get a husky unless I had hours a day to exercise them. I always feel sorry for huskies in the UK as they are working dogs that need to be doing something.

@brownbear201 you’ve not commented on the Smooth Collie suggestion, so I’m going to take the liberty of popping this in here - they are not a well known breed, so it may be lost in the generic ‘Collie’ comments.

https://smoothcollieclubofgb.co.uk/allaboutthesmoothcollie.html

They are a vulnerable native breed who need supporters (not just a short coated collie/sheepdog), but a great all round dog who has got a bit lost next to the glamour of the Rough Collie. Steadier and bolder in temperament than Roughs can sometimes be, but with a good ‘off switch’.

I'm surprised anyone thinks a Border terrier wouldn't be active enough. Mine would certainly disagree.

They are more energy on demand dogs it's true. Mine is happy to chill in the house but pop her harness and lead on and she'll go for hours. They do need a good hour of exercise a day and they do need good mental stimulation but nothing compared to some of the other working breeds.

If you want a larger dog then there would be lots I'd suggest but for a smaller package you'd not go far wrong with one or another similar long legged terrier breed. Other than one particular dog she hates as he jumped on her three times as a puppy and hurt her (she was on the lead he was off) mine is great with others, if a little reserved.

I've taught agility for 15 years now and so been exposed to a multitude of breeds. Collies can be great but are a gamble. The large gundogs NEED to run for hours and hours and also need mental stimulation in spades. Spaniels I wouldn't personally have as their working needs are too high even in an experienced home.

My last dog was a small terrier hound (larger than my border) and she was the same with being energy on demand but happy to walk all day, agility, training. My border is much smarter and picks things up quicker and also doesn't have the need to run like she did but both just adapted to what we wanted to do. Making sure your future dog is structurally and medically healthy and has a good chance of staying that way goes as far as breed. There are so many problems creeping into working strain dogs now that weren't there even 10 years ago.

I have a 3 year old WCS. Please can you elaborate on the issues. If only so I can be aware.

@Branster - lol 😂
A lot of people think samoyeds are white huskies - they're definitely very different .. but sammies can be a bit away with the fairies 🤣 but yes they're very beautiful - attached is my Sammy with her full winter coat - really scruffy though as hasn't been groomed for a while 😱🐾🤣

@brownbear201 you should get a vizsla. I know someone who has just the lifestyle you described and the vizsla fits in perfectly.

There’s increasingly a risk that as cockers (show and working) get older, that they display ‘rage’ like symptoms. It’s not the ‘cocker rage’ you would find described on Google etc, but more complex. Rage is something else entirely, but vets are describing it as ‘rage’ as the symptoms are similar.

It seems to be bought on by some sort of mental defect/deterioration (age/stroke/dementia) whereas ‘rage’ starts when they’re younger/adolescents - at least that’s the current best guess. But it’s a fairly recent phenomenon (last eight years or so) and getting worse.

2 of the 14 vets at my DPs practice have cockers who are showing these tendencies - suddenly attacking other residential dogs for no reason, waking up from a nap and attacking the resident cat etc. And these are dogs with no behavioural issues, friendly etc.

Most dogs showing symptoms seen are between 6-10(ish). DP has seen dozens of cockers over the last year (as did I before I left the profession) where owners are bringing them in with these symptoms…and there’s nothing we can really do. You can medicate, but that’s too expensive long term.

FWIW, the dogs I saw/DPs seen don’t appear to suffer in any way. There’s no pain. No anger etc. They just suddenly snap/fly. But, of course, it makes it harder to know if/when it will happen.

It’s why although I love cockers (and have one of my own and currently foster two more) I wouldn’t get another. I have kids and I’ve seen this latest ‘behavioural issue’ (although tbh I think it’s more mental) first hand -in dogs I have known since they were two weeks old - and I couldn’t risk it.

The breeds over represented at our local cani cross events are: vislas, bedlington whippets crosses and water dogs (Italian is smallest I think and best fit for you, called Lagottos).

I know a lot of working cockers and some would be perfect for you, some awful - I think there's a lot of breed variability.

The large gundogs NEED to run for hours and hours and also need mental stimulation in spades

Mental stimulation yes, but they don't need to run for hours and hours. The jobs gundogs were trained for involved an awful lot of sitting about and watching/observing.

I am surprised at your comments. I know many people with wcs who work them in gundog work or agility and I don't know any who have exhibited this and a lot are of more advanced age. I live in gundog country so also know lots of pets and aside from being very hard work none I know have had aggression issues. The only issues I am aware of are age related pain issues which can manifest in 'random' aggression.

I'd be interested in any scientific and medical papers on this as it's a bold claim to make.

a pointer would be great for the running but the prey drive may be an issue. off piste suggestion but we have a "pocket pointer" rescue who is brilliant - yes she's from Cyprus - before you all start, we had good reasons for adopting a foreign dog, didn't go into it blindly and have had no issues. the important point being she is smaller than an average pointer and as a failed hunter her prey drive is easily controlled

if you're up for a rescue and are open to the concept of adopting from abroad have a look at Rehoming Cyprus Pointers- they are a great organisation who do full due diligence and offer lifetime support and back up

Border collie! You pretty much described our collie's life apart from we have 2 children. Great dogs, need stimulation and exercise yes but what you describe sounds perfect.
There is quite a big variation in size in collies ours is quite small so have a look at both parents to judge likely size. They are also skinny dogs so seem smaller than other medium sized dogs.
We live in an area with lots of sheep too and our dog isn't that bothered, also very easy to train so can be trained to not chase and they are usually not aggressive dogs.
They are bread to work with humans too so just naturally want to stay close on walks, always want to check where their human is. My DH runs with our dog a lot and the dog will run ahead a bit then stop and wait like he's saying come on then keep up!

Thanks for all the suggestions, I'll try and address as many as possible.

Springer- I was thinking of these too actually, although I was more focused on the Cocker purely for size. They seem to be ideal, albeit slightly bigger than I was hoping for but not too out of the range to be fair. A bit less popular than working cockers too I think?

JRT/Parson- Again, another interesting suggestion and one I had thought of. A man at some of our local canicross races has one that has ran up to 20 miles with him. Perfect size too. But again, it's the feisty-ness with other dogs that worries me. As anyone who walks in green spaces with dogs knows, no matter what you do or say it's inevitable that people will let their dogs run up to you. I don't want to be worrying about possible altercations on walks if possible.

Dalmatian/Weim/GSP- A bit too big I think. Also a bit concerned about them being too strong for me to run comfortably with- I'm short and light and I don't want to end up being dragged about like Santa's sleigh during canicross runs!

Vizsla- I do like the look of these actually. But I've heard they can be a bit nervy?

Samoyed/Smooth Collie/Bearded Collie- Interesting suggestions that I admittedly don't know much about. Will look into them though. A friend of mine has a Smooth and he is very tall, so they might be a bit big.

Border Collie/Working Sheepdog- Again, another contender. But again, worried about the sensitivity of being in noisy and busy environments.

Lagotto/Bedlington- Never really thought about them to be honest, but certainly worth a look.

I have said it’s a relatively new phenomena - much like the skulls of cavs were several years ago - and so of course people aren’t talking about it. The only people who are aware of this issue are breeders (most of whole ignore it) or the vets, like me and my DP, who were PTS dogs weekly because of it.

It is entirely separate to age related pain aggression and more on a par with rage - many vets have been diagnosing it as rage in recent years and so there has been a subsequent uptick in cockers diagnosed with rage (there’s even been mumsnet posts about it) but it is not rage. It’s similar.

Some lines of both GSPs and Vizslas run small, though I know some donkey-sized GSPs.

Vizslas can be nervy, but by no means all, and the wires less so than the smooths IME. Look at the lines/parents.

If you go down that route, and don't want to be dealing with lots of prey drive, avoid avoid avoid any dog with FTW (field trial winner) or FTCh (field trial champion) on its pedigree or amongst its close relations. In your shoes I'd also avoid any GSP with recent German ancestry - lovely dogs, but all of them bred to work so high prey drive and a big need for mental stimulation.

Just to add about border collies, it's true they don't tend to like loud noises. Ours hates when big lorries drive past for example. We had to train him not to react, we now sit and wait until they've gone past.
He has come in to cities with us too, not is favourite thing but it's ok especially if pedestrianised. Start when they're young and give lots of treats and they learn how to behave. He loves saying hi to new people just not very young jumpy loud.

A friend of mine has a Smooth and he is very tall, so they might be a bit big.

A bitch will be smaller (and if your friend's male is sable, he may have American lines making him bigger too).

@brownbear201 Yes a GSP might be a bit big but smaller dogs will struggle to do the off road distances you want to do, tbh in a bitch, they really aren't much bigger than a B/Collie

As for dragged along, thats down to training, mine runs alongside or slightly ahead, lead or no lead, my DD is 5ft 3in and takes her on long runs too.

Vizlas are very similar to GSPs, perhaps a bit more nervy & similar size.

Small terriers can go all day, so I’d say a Border terrier would be a very good call.

Don’t get a Patterdale or a Lakeland - they tend to have a much higher prey drive as well as full-bore terrier obstinacy. Norwich/Norfolk/Cairns are lovely dogs, and at the more compliant end of terrierness, but some lines tend to luxating patellae which would scupper many of your plans.

A robust (is there any other kind?) Jack or Parsons Russell would be a good call.

Please don't run with a puppy, used to see a man dragging lab puppy roun our large park on a lead while he did his run. Poor thing probably got joint pain.

Not a spaniel! Well not my springer anyway.....
Ridiculously high prey drive,. Runs in spaniel zig zag style

Pulls like a proverbial... Even with a lot of training.... Can heel but thats no use on a run.....
Gun dog and scent training is great for obedience but l cannot fathom canicross with him.... Although would run all day..

Id suggest a working lab... Slightly smaller than show ... Less loon than springer

Maybe show cocker?? Otherwise working cockers seem almost as mad as springer just not as strong.. mine 22kg of complete gorgeous dog

Vizlas, GSPs and working labs all pretty much cross over each other size wise depending on lines/sex.

A friend has 3 female vizlas and the smallest is smaller than my smaller lab but the biggest is bigger than my bigger lab, ranging between 19 and 26kg. We train with a female wirehaired one that is huge - 29kg. The GSPs I know are all bigger than my labs, but are also all male.

All the HPRs I know are generally more sensitive than labs, so I think would take a bit more training to be relaxed in an urban environment but nothing insurmountable. Prey drive again seems really down to the individual.

All the collies I know are neurotic in some way or another.

Border collie or Australian Shepherd. I've owned both breeds. My dogs have never been overly sensitive to noise or anxious about busy environments, though those are certainly issues to be concerned about (with all dogs, of course, not just these breeds). My current dog (Aussie) would adore everything about your lifestyle. Running, hiking, playing fetch, swimming are all among his favourite activities. Yesterday we went for a long walk in the woods. He had a brilliant time running about, jumping in and out of streams.

My thoughts from your description was working springer or lab.

Springers keep their Heads more than cockers.

With a lab you'd need really good hip and elbow scores to be doing what you describe