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41 replies

Deadringer · 20/07/2024 12:35

Hi all, we had to get our old boy put down 3 years ago and got some great advice on here. We feel ready for another dog now and have signed up to a rescue and have been homechecked successfully, all good. The rescue urgently needed a foster home for 2 siblings, 8 weeks old, a boy and girl and we took them hoping to adopt one of them. Anyway we have fallen in love with both of them, they are fantastic little pups, we don't know if we will be lucky enough to adopt either of them, but just in case, does anyone have any experience of littermate syndrome? Can it be avoided with seperate training regimes, seperate walks etc? Tia

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Deadringer · 20/07/2024 12:38

Whoops, forgot the photo.

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Lastqueenofscotland2 · 20/07/2024 13:02

Littermate syndrome is no joke, and not really avoidable, it can be made less likely with good management but honestly I’d not risk it

Killingoffmyflowersonebyone · 20/07/2024 13:24

Sigh. Littermate Syndrome is basically a description for piss poor training and ownership - using the fact the dogs are siblings as an excuse for the owners to not take any responsibility for their failure to raise well-rounded dogs.

A decent owner with experience (proper experience of the breed and it's various issues - because different breeds have different characteristics and are more prone to various different behaviours i.e. SA in spaniel) and having had dogs before as an adult, is capable of raising two dogs from the same litter well enough. But it takes 150% more effort than raising one puppy well.

I have done it - successfully - twice. Both times with show cockers.

But, realistically, a charity won't let you anyway so this is likely a non-starter. Most good breeders wouldn't let you either (if you ever wanted to go down that route) because, as I said, it's 150% harder than raising one puppy well. The only reason I have been able to do it twice is because I am very involved in showing (have been for years and my parents did it before me) and so the breeders have known I am a safe bet when they have struggled to find decent homes for their puppies.

Nannyfannybanny · 20/07/2024 13:33

First, I have to say they are absolutely adorable, can't believe no one has said that!! I have a neighbour with 2 males from the same litter,they have always been fine. I always understood it was only a problem with 2 bitches. I haven't had experience myself. DH had a bitch when we met, mine was then PTS,we went to the local RSPCA and were told we had to have a dog,that 2 bitches couldn't live together. We ended up buying a puppy, then 6 months later got a private rescue puppy,both border collies, 8 weeks old,so not considered the worlds easiest dogs. I have 2 border collie bitches now.

Nannyfannybanny · 20/07/2024 13:37

All the puppies were BC and bitches. We were told,you can't have 2 puppies 6 months apart....we did, they were best friends, completely different temperament.

Deadringer · 20/07/2024 13:39

We don't know the breed mix mother is a doodle, which could be anything with a bit of poodle and father is unknown. We haven't fostered before and have been given almost no info, it's possible that they were abandoned, I assume the rescue will be more forthcoming when they are looking for permanent homes for them. I would be content if we can adopt one but we will be heartbroken to see the other go.

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Hasbean2 · 20/07/2024 13:45

Long post warning
Yes sadly worked in a rescue where a lot of dogs came in as a littermate situation following fights and injuries

It's worth saying that a lot of it is about the complications of simply having two untrained dogs together rather than as something specific that happens with two dogs That are related. I'd also highlight that when you ask for advice a lot of people will tell you that their dogs are fine when their dogs are under the age when it usually presents (I'd say by 4 it tends to be more clear), or when their dogs clearly exhibit signs (inseparable, co dependent behaviours, can't settle alone and have behaviours that are made worse by being together)

I'm not saying all of the below is true for you but simply the patterns we see.

So in terms of having two dogs... do you have time? As in do you physically have the time, space and money to do the puppy thing doubled? Lots of people get 2 because they hope they will entertain each other, so may not even have Time for one.

Two dogs means things like space for 2 crates etc. They will need their own space at times and to get used to being able to settle apart (else it will come back to bite you when one goes to the vets, or if they need to be separated due to injury, fighting etc). All young puppies lack an off switch, so you'll have to manually manage that. The same as when they are teenagers, they will take great delight in winding each other up when the other wants to sleep. Typically if you have an older dog, the younger pup will listen to their no but it's harder with two teenage terrors winding each other up

Both dogs will need independently have training space so its double the training time . It might then be than you need someone needs to distract the other pup while you're working with the other otherwise they disrupt each other all the time. Lots of people struggle to have the time, money and man power to put two pups through puppy training classes at the same time. Often you'll need a second person so you have a 1:1 ratio.

The best example I can give is public walking. With one puppy you can clearly see when they are fearful, might need a different approach, space and it's easier to anticipate behaviour so you can tell for example they are going to pounce on another dog so redirect their attention. You can mark and reward clearly

With two dogs with the same handler you lose that focus, so you can tend to yank them into situations they aren't comfortable with, or let them practice undesirable behaviour behaviour because you don't have the hands to sort it. This is more likely to lead into having a reactive dog. If you are trying to teach lose lead walking you might be saying yes to one while it's walking beautifully, but their sibling that's pulling manically will also hear that same yes. You'll also be missing things to reward and doing more pulling on leads accidently which encourages dogs to accept pressure on their lead as normal eg when dog a is walking lovely, but dog b pulls, you'll pull dog a too.

What then happens is it becomes a bit of a circus, they hype each other up so say for example one barks, the other will copy that bark some more and they will hype each other into a barking crescendo. Its why it's often people with multiple dogs that have barky dogs on walks

Obviously what then happens is that people decide that it's a bit overwhelming and tend to do less socialisation of their puppies, and they get less socialistion than the average pup. Imagine trying to introduce two pups to a horse for example at the same time. It's hard work!

None of that is insurmountable. For example we often do a one person one dog approach with my partner when walking young pups and it works perfectly. Infact we do it now as we have an old dog that wants to sniff the flowers and a young dog who needs a bit more of a pace. We walk together just using different techniques

If you have the space/time to train them individually and give them the same attention, time out etc you'd give a single dog then you're off to a better start. Just like human twins, they need time to be their own dog, with their own personalities that might need different things from you

However if you aren't sure then they'd be better of a singles.

Most reputable rescues will be cautious of it, and to be honest I'd take it a giant red flag if they seem keen for you to do it. Especially as a first time fosterer

Hasbean2 · 20/07/2024 13:55

I have seen cases where people have done all the wrong things and had dogs that are okay, and people that did all the right things and ended up with two dogs that can't live together

There are no guarantees either way

Obviously some of that is simply down to them being so young when put together that you don't know their personalities. Some dogs will always prefer to be lone dogs, or want to live with a quiet friend and there's no guarantee that's what their sibling will grow up to be.
It's like being kept in a room with your sibling all your life, and never leaving their sight. Some siblings get on fine, some don't want to be in the same room!

Deadringer · 20/07/2024 15:08

Thanks for all the advice, we have had a dog before as a family but i am not sure I would say we are experienced owners. We love them both so much already, but the potential for problems and the cost are definitely factors to be considered. My head is saying one, my heart two. I actually hope the rescue say no to two then the decision is made for us.

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Hasbean2 · 20/07/2024 15:22

As with anyone with two In terms of cost it's not just things like 2x insurance 2x food etc and 2 x training.
The complication of two the same age can be the possibility of two hitting the same medical costs at the same time. For example neutering but also old age

We currently have an older and younger dog. We absolutely could not afford 2x the older dogs vet bills at this point. The younger dog is costing in training costs but her insurance is pretty low. Our old boy reached the age where his insurance cost was astronomical and had very little coverage, but now has regular regimes of things like joint supplements as well as meds for specific old age related conditions

It's not something I'd really thought about before but it's intense if that's not staggered

YourMomGoes2College · 20/07/2024 15:27

I really wouldn't.

I got 2 pug bitches at the same time. They were the only 2 in the litter and the breeder wanted them to go together so gave a big discount (basically bogof) Huge red flag looking back!!!

I read up on littermate syndrome but absolutely could not prevent it.

They fought and dre blood consistently. The were resource and food guarding. One of them bit my son because he came to sit with me and the dogs were in competition with each other all the time for my favour.

I rehomed one of them with a friend and all the bad behaviour stopped instantly when they were without each other.

I since got another dog (when OD was about 4 so a long time after) and they're fine together, best friends.

It's a really serious thing.

Deadringer · 20/07/2024 15:39

Anyone fancy guessing their 'breed' just for fun? They are small, I am guessing that mum is a cockapoo and dad might have some mini schnauzer in him. I mean they are mongrels, but most dogs now seem to be hybrids rather than heinz 57s. White on nose is the girl.

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YourMomGoes2College · 20/07/2024 15:42

Deadringer · 20/07/2024 15:39

Anyone fancy guessing their 'breed' just for fun? They are small, I am guessing that mum is a cockapoo and dad might have some mini schnauzer in him. I mean they are mongrels, but most dogs now seem to be hybrids rather than heinz 57s. White on nose is the girl.

They're cute but are you listening to anything being said?

If the rescue allows this they are totally unethical.

Do the right thing and allow them both to have the best lives separately.

YourMomGoes2College · 20/07/2024 15:43

You've skipped over all the advice against it and asked about their breed.

You need to be fostering and rehousing one of them.

What rescue are you fostering for, out of curiosity?

1984Winston · 20/07/2024 15:47

I had two litter mates that had litter mate syndrome, it was awful and they were both put down at a young age because they bit people. It was heartbreaking and honestly its not worth the risk (this was a long time ago and had no idea it was a bad idea until after).

Deadringer · 20/07/2024 15:50

Yes I have read all advice and absolutely taken it on board, i know in my heart really that we can only keep one. I am in ireland and it's a smallish rescue local to me, I would rather not name it.

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YourMomGoes2College · 20/07/2024 16:53

Deadringer · 20/07/2024 15:50

Yes I have read all advice and absolutely taken it on board, i know in my heart really that we can only keep one. I am in ireland and it's a smallish rescue local to me, I would rather not name it.

I'm not surprised you don't want to name it. I don't know a single rescue that would allow that and I'm involved quite heavily in the area.

Deadringer · 20/07/2024 17:00

YourMomGoes2College · 20/07/2024 16:53

I'm not surprised you don't want to name it. I don't know a single rescue that would allow that and I'm involved quite heavily in the area.

I don't know what you mean, they don't allow it as far as I know, I haven't asked yet.

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YourMomGoes2College · 20/07/2024 17:44

Deadringer · 20/07/2024 17:00

I don't know what you mean, they don't allow it as far as I know, I haven't asked yet.

If they don't allow it why are you even posting this? Surely they said when you fostered that they wouldn't allow you to adopt both?

Deadringer · 20/07/2024 18:00

I don't know if they allow it, i didnt think to ask because we never intended to adopt 2, tbh i thought having puppies again after such a long time would be a massive chore but they are Brilliant. We had been homechecked for adoption and we offered to foster when we saw an urgent appeal. Since falling in love with the two of them I have been reading a lot online about littermate issues and apparently not all experts agree so I thought I would ask people on here who might have experience, as I said in my op i got great advice here before when our old dog was reaching the end of his life.

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Wolfiefan · 20/07/2024 19:18

You would need to walk, train, play etc with each pup separately. The only people I know who have done this successfully has two adults who each took charge of one pup and space to keep them separate for much of the time.
I have giants. I know someone who kept two boys. It was all fine until one day it wasn’t. She had to rehome one.

YourMomGoes2College · 20/07/2024 19:57

Deadringer · 20/07/2024 18:00

I don't know if they allow it, i didnt think to ask because we never intended to adopt 2, tbh i thought having puppies again after such a long time would be a massive chore but they are Brilliant. We had been homechecked for adoption and we offered to foster when we saw an urgent appeal. Since falling in love with the two of them I have been reading a lot online about littermate issues and apparently not all experts agree so I thought I would ask people on here who might have experience, as I said in my op i got great advice here before when our old dog was reaching the end of his life.

Well the 'experts' that don't believe in it should see the scars on my dog from her sister attacking her so badly she had to have stitches

This is a PUG. Do you know how rare it is for a pug to attack?

That's when I said enough is enough and rehomed her sister.

Now, separated, they are both wonderful dogs.

They did nothing but compete from the womb. And it's actually WORSE if they are the only 2 dogs together from birth.

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 20/07/2024 20:04

It seems to me fine to give the advice requested, but not to demand information on whereabouts, or to demand to know whether advice will be heeded. Please check yourselves.

Deadringer · 20/07/2024 20:04

Great to get all this advice, obviously keeping two is a non runner. Wolfiefan we are a household of adults and a teen so could probably manage all of that but don't want to take any chances. Hopefully we will get to adopt one of them, and the other will get a loving home too.

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ShouldhavebeencalledAppollo · 20/07/2024 20:08

Op I fostered 4 puppies. They were absconded in a box a few days before Christmas 2019.

the recuse were really clear that if we wanted to adopt one, it was one only. The recuse had them checked by a vet who estimated they were approx 3-4 weeks old. There was a strict plan in place to have them rehomed by 10 weeks at the latest.

my brother bought 2 puppies from a litter. Did everything suggested to avoid litter mate syndrome. Trained separately, walked separately, slept separate and so on. One had to be put down before she was 2 because she became so aggressive. With her litter mate and my brothers family. He was heart broken.

I am really concerned that the recuse even let you foster them both at that age, without a plan to refine one quite quickly.