Positive only training - is it possible with all dogs?

[ToLoveALabrador]

I have 9 month old male lab who I take to weekly training canine good citizen bronze classes plus the odd fun class activity. He knows most commands which he's very responsive to (unless very distracted). There's a lot of positives about his behaviour. He's mostly quiet and usually relatively trouble free when I work from home, he has great re-call in quiet areas, waits to eat, great in car, friendly with all people and dog etc. I've still got a long way to go with his training though. His overall behaviour still leaves a LOT to be desired. He'll grab cushions and drag them away; counter surf given half a chance; jump up at walls to catch moths; suddenly pull hard on lead to chase birds; park himself on ground whenever he wants to greet a dog / stranger) on walks so I have to wait. I could go on and on. I'm gradually working through these behaviours to train him. I aim to use positive only training methods, together with behavioural management (e.g. keeping things out of his reach). Very occassionally I'll unintentionally shout a command. For example, he found a dead bird in woods and picked it up. For at least a minute he refused to drop it and ran round with it in his mouth like it was a game. It utterly apaulled me. I said 'give' relatively patiently umpteen times, offered handfuls of treats in exchange but nothing worked until I eventually screamed "GIVE" and he did.
I met a stranger on walk the other day who said he has a 2 year old male lab and at my dog's age it's essential I be firm with him and tell him off when he needs it otherwise he'll keep doing the bad behaviour. Is there any truth in this?
I find whenever I do accidentally shout a word (which is rare) he does listen, he does change his behaviour next time but it comes at a cost so I never do it intentionally.
So my question is is it necessary to be occassionally firm like that with some dogs? (My friend used to be with her lab pup and she has a perfect, gentle adult dog). Or is it really possible to train a large dog to be fully well behaved using just positive only (treats, praise) and management (closed doors etc)? My dog is boisterous, generally confident and independent. Does positive only work better for smaller dogs with gentler natures? I'm also a bit frustrated with the behaviour management thing. I know if I were to put my handbag on the floor he'd destroy it and everything in it, so I don't. But I'm worried I'm going to end up with a very badly behaved dog who visitors can't even put their bag down around. He's my 1st dog. I've put so much time and energy into him and his training. I've done alot right I guess but still feel like I'm failing in so many ways. Are all young male labs like this?

I'm a fully signed up to force free training methods. I don't believe in punishing dogs. I believe in making them want to do what you want not being scared into it.

But
My dogs also know my business voice. If something is urgent or unsafe they know my change of voice and react accordingly. It's rarely used - and NEVER used in anger.
So yes I do believe there is a place for boundaries and them knowing when it's been pushed too far. But so longs as it's not done to scare or hurt them.

All my dogs respond to a "ffff" noise of reproach - like something halfway between a sharp intake of breath and a Hannibal Lector impression. It's quiet but very effective. Just use it whenever you correct anything. Start now though.

Your dog is only 9 months old, so he won't yet be perfectly trained. So give him time.

To answer your question, force free works well with some dogs, but IMHO it doesn't work for all dogs for all behaviours. You can get a long way with it, but it can take a long time, consistency and a lot of environmental management. And with some behaviours, you can hit a wall.

I would always lay down new behaviours using positive reinforcement and get as far as I can that way. But I will tell a dog off when he or she knows what I want (e.g. recall) and has decided that something else is more important (rabbits!), especially when safety is an issue. I've used aversion to get my dogs safe around livestock, because where I live sheep and cattle get out onto footpaths. And the pair of them are cheerful and outgoing, and I have a very good relationship with them.

If you want to listen to an interesting and respectful discussion about training, there is an excellent one between Jo-Rosie Haffenden (force free) and Ivan Balabanov (who will use aversion) on the Training without Conflict podcast.

I'm definitely in the minority on this board, which is very force free.

Training entirely with positive reinforcement doesn’t work for every dog no. Speaking as someone who has owned and trained various breeds over 40 years, in my experience, their are brief periods when it’s important to make it clear that you are ‘the boss’ with large breeds that have a dominant streak. It’s not fashionable of course and I don’t mean being horrible to a dog, I mean e.g. that if a youngster grows when you tell it to get of the sofa, you grow to you full height and drag it off the thing etc.

Growls, not grows 🙄

At 9 months old he just wants to play and be happy! They’re right little turds at that age.

Use your forceful voice when you need to. But don’t shout in anger. Never ends well.

He sounds like he's doing absolutely fine for a 9 month old :)

The last time I had a puppy positive only training just wasn't a thing. When I got my current dog the world of training had moved on so very much. In my experience lots of us start out very committed to positive only reinforcement and as a friend put it, sooner or later we admit to ourselves that "No" is a useful word and that it isn't dog abuse to use it.

Ime you do need to tell all dogs off occasionally, but it doesn’t need to to be aggressive, violent or abusive. I’ve got a very firm ‘uhuh’ I bring out when mine is misbehaving and have heard myself kinda growling at it him at times. I also do a good line in turning my back on him and ignoring him when he’s gobbing off at me to throw his ball, he hates it so it’s probably aversive but it works.

it’s like kids, 95% positive and rewards based with the occasional ticking off to let them know that their behaviour really isn’t appropriate.

Occasionally I use a strong voice too. I would never be physical though or shout. I also wouldn’t use any aversive methods. Very much in the same way my human children know when I’m not messing about!

In the nicest way, you’re expecting too much of a 9 month old puppy. He’s just a baby with his hormones flooding him, generally I don’t expect dogs to be ‘trained’ and starting to settle until around 18 months-2 years. Even my older dogs still do silly things occasionally!

I think for 9 months he’s doing great! You just have to persevere through adolescence and carry on with consistent training and he will get there

I do use a stern deeper tone to my voice if mines pushing the boundaries, not often but he knows that means he’s pushed me and reigns himself back in. All new behaviours have/are trained with treats or toys and positive only

My lab is 10 months old. Definitely, definitely force free training, but I still have my 'firm' voice. If I want her to move away from something, I say 'Leave it!' in a very firm voice- they recognise tone of voice and that cuts through the excitement of the find.

She's pretty good off-lead, but I always have a long line on her to make sure that I can intervene if there is something too exciting or if other dogs come near.

The best tips I was taught:

1. practice the 'name game' on every walk - so getting him to respond to his name, come back for a treat, then release him to walk on again.
2. Teach the behaviour chain of 'come' and 'middle' (so he circles behind you and sits in between your legs) - it's a really good control position and it means that you're less likely to have strangers/dogs approach him unexpectedly.
3. Practice 'come and middle' when you don't need it. Don't expect him to manage it only when he's really hyped up. I use 'come and middle' at least 15 times on every walk. Just wait until he's a bit ahead, then say 'Harry, come' and then when he's returning to you, 'middle.'
4. Teach an emergency stop. My pup has been taught that if I say 'Stop!' she lays down where she is. Practice it when there are few distractions. She's still a work in progress but improving daily.
5. I also teach a 'wait' which is like the emergency stop but going away from you.
6. Teach the 'backaway' - when he's at the end of his lead, straining, wait for him to turn his head back to you and praise/treat. He'll start to learn that if he gets tension on the lead, he should return to you.
7. Teach a 'let's go' - same as backaway, except that you start to walk in the opposite direction as soon as he looks at you. He'll learn to respond to 'let's go' by following you.

He sounds like he's doing amazingly for his age - labradors can be slow to mature so we're in for the long haul!

Yes it does. For some dogs it takes longer and you need to pair it with management but I know some of the hardest dogs who have 'come good' with force free training.

You will notice the social media 'balanced' trainers only show dogs they can bully and scare. So no hounds or terriers. They'll stick two fingers up at you before carrying on.

Show me a terrier who has been trained, not supressed with force and pain and I will agree with you that force free does not work for all dogs. You won't find any.

He's a baby. Training is a life long commitment.

It's only online that I've seen this idea of positive only training and never saying no. All the training classes I've been to are force free and built around positive reinforcement and whilst they do talk around not saying no it's more because no is largely meaningless for most dogs. They've all advocated using an interruptor (I use oi) and using varying tones.

Some of your dogs behaviour sounds like boredom/finding their own entertainment. How much do you do where he has the opportunity to use his brain?

No is pointless as it doesn’t mean anything. Dogs can’t learn to do a No. I use a positive interrupter. So I said dogs name and gave treat many many times. So when I say her name it really is worth her listening. I literally use it to stop her doing anything in a nice positive way. Yesterday she was trying to grab the apples off my tree. So I interrupted her and then put a garden chair in the way and gave her her toy instead. No force, no fear, relationship maintained. I never ever want my dog to do or not do something because she is afraid. I want her to do something because she wants to and that means you need to be more skilled and have a greater understanding of reward than using punishment. Anyone can do that.

He's a 9 month old lab. They counter surf and chase / carry birds. It's what they do.

I would say that young entire male labs are among the most annoying dogs I see as a vet and a walker. They tend to be wilful, boisterous and oblivious to body language of other dogs and people.
Training methods need to be adapted to the individual animal but I would say that robust training is required to make a good citizen of a young male labrador. This would most definitely include very solid boundaries.
You talk about saying "give" umpteen times. That's hopeless. One of the absolute rules of dog training is that you only give an instruction once and then ensure it is followed. Otherwise you are simply letting the dog make a fool of you and they will have zero respect for anything you say.
Have a read of Lez Graham's excellent book The Pet Gundog.

I only use positive reinforcement training methods.

Yes (especially with labs) you can train all behaviours using positive reinforcement.

However you will find a lot of old school gundog trainers who insist you have to have a firm hand to give boundaries. It is not true.

Re the bird incident, everytime my labs pick up something they will hand it over happily as they have been trained using positive reinforcement.

To stop counter surfing just teach a good settle in their bed and the labs will happily sit in their beds whilst you prepare food etc and not jump up to the counters.

Re trashing cushions give them access to toys they can play with if unsupervised.

Always reward recall with something the dogs wants and you can get pretty much perfect recall. I can call my lab off deer, rabbits, bird, moving balls and even over sausage on the floor. He knows that he always get the best reinforcement for coming to me every single time.

Get a good positive trainer on board to show you how and you will have a fantastic labrador