Training crafty dog to not bark - think it’s backfired.

[Bombledew]

I have a lurcher who identifies as a malinois. She’s very hard work, easy to train but very intense with it, and once she’s learnt what gets her treats she’ll fake doing stuff to get them (honestly it’s very hard to not anthropomorphise this dog! I swear she knows how to manipulate me!).
For example when house training she cottened on to being rewarded for weeing outside and quickly started to pretend to wee to get extra treats (which we nipped in the bud when we realised, and rewarded her only when she actually produced a wee).

So moving on to barking - saw a TikTok video that said to say quiet when she was barking then reward and say yes as soon as she stopped - this worked very well, but within 24 hours she started to look at my biscuit-filled pocket, wander over to the window, give me a sneaky glance then bark at a non existent cat, run to me and nudge my pocket. If she’s not rewarded she repeats the process over and over again or just barks more than ever.

Trying to phase out a food reward and replace with a “yes” or a clicker has never worked on her. It’s a treat reward or she doubles down on whatever we’re trying to discourage by rewarding positive behaviour.

We have had a behaviourist involved with her, who commented that Ddog was indeed very intense and needs a lot of input to keep her on the straight and narrow. She didn’t have any advice for the dog’s insane skills at recognising situations and using them for her advantage. She felt that Ddog will calm down at some point (she’s 4, no signs of that yet).

So any ideas? Do I just make sure that I have a never ending supply of tiny treats on me at all times? Any other ways of teaching her to stop barking that don’t inadvertently teach her new ways to get extra food?

Does she have any favourite toys, play games ? I use my dogs Kong on a rope or favourite ball instead of treats sometimes and it works well.

Without a pic I'm not sure you even have a lovely lurcher.....

Ah she's one of those dogs that's too clever for her own good (or your good!) I knew a Springer Spaniel like that, learnt what got him treats and did the bad behaviour more so that he could then 'be good' and get the reward.
Do you have food puzzles and do scent games to get her brain working? Sounds like a dog that need a lot of mental stimulation!

Now she knows what "quiet" means, try and move the training on and reward her when she's naturally being quiet, if that makes sense.

So when she's just sitting and watching out of the window in silence, say "quiet" and treat her. Don't wait for her to start barking before you tell her to be quiet, she needs to learn that sitting in silence is what gets her rewarded, not barking and stopping.

So she should eventually sit at the window, look at a cat (or whatever) and look straight to you for a reward for being silent, not for barking and then being quiet.

Exactly what @fieldsofbutterflies said. She currently thinks the barking is part of what she's being rewarded for. You need to say quiet when she's just chilling so she knows the word means to do nothing. At the moment she thinks the act of barking is what she's getting the reward for. Once you've done lots of rewarding for just doing nothing, move onto using the word when she's barking but when she stops barking don't give the treat straight away, wait a minute and if she continues to be quiet repeat the word and reward, this instills that the reward is for being quiet. Important to continue give random treats and fuss after saying the word while when she's just chilling and hasn't been barking to in-still that the behaviour you want is for her to do nothing.

Yes absolutely, what they said. Reward her when she’s being quiet and then you need to move it on. Say yes when she’s doing what you want her to do so that she knows that she got it right but don’t immediately offer a treat. The ‘yes’ is the marker, the treat is just a reward. As long as it still comes, it doesn’t have to be at exactly the same time. Space it out a bit so she hopefully learns to disassociate the action with the reward. She’s learnt to expect it every time because that’s how you’ve rewarded her in the past.

She’s far too clever 😂

She has all sorts of snuffle mats and puzzle feeders which she speeds through.
I need to look into scent games, we haven’t tried those yet.

@fieldsofbutterflies @birdsongfromtheshedroof @MsAdoraBelleDearheartVonLipwig thank you! This is exactly the advice I needed, how to move on from the immediate stages of training.

She isn't trying to manipulate you - that's the anthropomorphised conceptualisation. She has learned a behaviour in response to a stimulus, and it's becoming generalised / not specific enough as she tests the boundaries of what the reward requires. Just keep specifying when you notice drift (eg. the squatting for a treat doesn't get one) and she'll catch on which part of the behaviour is the important part to get the reward. Drift in trained behaviours is totally normal but some are definitely more prone to it than others!

I think this one portrays a little of the intensity 😂

My chihuahua does the same. She knows that if she barks in the garden she gets called in a rewarded with a treat so now she stands halfway up the garden, barks once and looks at me expectantly……

Those eyes are manic!!.
Have 2 Lurchers myself. 1 has trained me to supply blankets on demand and put the heating on..
Another shouts for her tea very loudly... Not a peep other times..

Just give her all of the treats! Look at her! And she's so clever. Clever and beautiful give her ALL of the treats.

My dog sometimes sits down on our walks so I will call her and then I'm obliged to give her a treat.

No advice,but she's gorgeous. We have a working collie x working cocker and he is exactly the same. He used to 'steal' things that he shouldn't have,like socks and shoes,so we taught him to bring them to us in return for a treat. Now,if he fancies a snack,he's back and forth with everything he can find. He is 5 and has only just started to calm down.

Oh she's lovely! I agree with @RitzyMcFee , just give her all the treats! 😄😆

We have another who is a more typically lazy lurcher. He spends half his time stretched out on his back and doesn’t even raise an eyebrow if someone walks past!

I’m being careful to not think the adoring “give all the treats” comments as I swear she’s psychic and will start up again 😂

We always have this trying to teach my Ddog anything

Taught him 'off' to get him off furniture: resulted in him repeatedly jumping on the furniture to get told 'off' and be rewarded

Taught him 'drop' and he would repeatedly steal items and bring them to you to swop for the better thing and/ or just because it's a good game.

We have had better success with catching him doing good things and rewarding. We taught him to go to his place by rewarding him when he goes there anyway and when he is lying quietly. We take some out of his kibble allowance and have it in a bowl in the kitchen and lob him some pieces occasionally when he is being good.

The dog trainer also told us that environmental management is part of it (which I thought was sort of cheating and not really training) because it stops them self rewarding bad behaviour so we physically prevent him going on furniture where he's not allowed and just learnt to put things that he will steal on a high shelf.

We have not cracked the barking yet I'm afraid but have started with saying quiet and rewarding when he is already quiet. He barks to demand things (which ought to be easier to solve), when excited and to alert and those latter two I am not sure we can change.

No advice just empathy. My dog now thinks that if she does her “HEEEEELP!” bark, we will help her go up and down the stairs (she’s afraid of the stairs) AND she gets a treat because we have been trying to get her to go up and down the stairs herself. She has also started on the toileting thing- refusing to go outside unless we were watching her.

A few days on and I think we’re tentatively seeing an improvement.

If someone walks past the house the dog is now sometimes running to the window then immediately turning round and sitting in front of me, which is a huge improvement.

Honestly amazing how quickly they get you trained, isn’t it?

Sounds like my terrier - super smart and manipulative (in a training way rather than a human way). She trained us to give her snacks when she dashed towards the cat then swerved away at the last minute and came back and sat neatly with her mouth open saying 'insert treats here loser'.

We have to be VERY careful what we reward her for and when.

I would be inclined to interrupt instead of teaching quiet. Dogs have to bark to stop ;) With the cat example above we learnt when she was going to do it and got her attention with a game before she had chance to practice her new fun activity.

Bright dogs can be a blessing and a curse!