Why does my dog want to kill foxes? –– and other prey drive questions

[Unluckycat1]

And cats, and squirrels, and rabbits... basically everything small and furry. Though not too small. Mice and voles she's just very interested in (have caught her sniffing them but no more). Birds, only if one is right in front of her. Livestock, interested but not leaping about at the end of the lead barking.

I've looked prey drive up and get a lot of the same information. It's part of the hunting sequence, and some dogs go all the way, whereas others are bred to stop at earlier points in the sequence.
What I don't know is, does it mellow? Is it possible to reduce by training? Is there a chance she just wants to chase, and wouldn't hurt the animal beyond that? I guess there's no actual answer to those questions, but I'd love to hear others' experiences of prey drive so I'm a bit less clueless about the possibilities.

She's my first dog (hence the clueless), 17 months, has some kind of sighthound in her, but I was led to believe it was only 25% so wasn't expecting her prey drive to be quite so extreme. Shows no prey drive reaction to dogs, not even very small cat or fox looking ones, but I'm still very careful about where I let her off the lead just in case.

What’s the rest of her breeding? Most sight hounds will have a decent prey drive, likewise most terriers. My lurcher has a strong prey drive but is well trained enough that he can be called off the chase so is off the lead most of the time and has been since his first walk.

You might find a squeaky ball helps with distractions - mine is pretty ball fixated and everything else is of little significance when he thinks he’s going to get a ball thrown for him.

I can recommend a book that discusses prey drive:

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=31693230165&dest=gbr&ref_=ps_ggl_2039220669&cm_mmc=ggl--UK_Shopp_Tradestandard--product_id=UK9780684855301USED-_-keyword=

Pretty much every working dog breed or landrace has been bred to perform modified prey drive to suit the purpose we want- as an example collies eye, orient, stalk & chase but don't grab bite, kill bite or dissect, they'd be a useless herding dog if they did.

Unfortunately sight hounds were bred to display the entire range from orient to kill bite, so some will never be able to be 100% trusted around other animals.

And then there are outliers such as the much sought after rescue greyhounds that don't chase the lure so can potentially live with cats.

Training can help, there are plenty of stock broken lurchers out there, but they are usually introduced to the species they aren't permitted to chase at a young age & will still chase small 'game' they aren't living around.

Some dogs do indeed 'mellow' with age though, my 12 year old ignored a deer she spotted after investigating the undergrowth but she has enough common sense to understand chasing will just lead to her arthritic joints aching so she ignored it, something she wouldn't have done even a year ago.

What else is in her apart from sighthound? As training advice will differ depending on breed(s).

Yes of course it is possible to desensitise her and train her however you need to start from when they are young (i start at 14 weeks old) and do breed appropriate training.
At the end of the day dogs are predators so prey drive is built into them (unless they are laptop types eg pugs).

As @twistyizzy says, dogs are predators. Even the ones bred to stop during the hunting sequence will carry through if you don't stop them.

You can control it but it takes time and training. My two (high drive working bred HPRs) are now steady to muntjac and rabbits, and will stop to flush on pheasants, but it took a lot of work.

Thanks so much for the replies! I thought everyone was going to say it can't be trained out of them, and to use a lead forever and muzzle etc. Fascinated to hear it can be dealt with with training, though I wonder if my girl's PD is just too strong.

She's never been allowed to chase, so has not built up self-rewarding behaviour, and we don't see her trigger animals all the time (foxes only on late walks, cats too really, rabbits rarely, squirrels only really in the woods, though one shy one lives in the tree in our garden).

Would the training be, she sees the animal, I get her attention and then feed her something amazing? I could probably do that with foxes on late walks as there is a period of intensely looking—she only goes frantic when they run.

I don't 100% know her breeds, but the rescue said they were told sighthound (she looks like she has saluki in her), collie, gsd, and husky. I got her as a puppy, but if I had got her as an adult I would have assumed she had hunted in the past, she's just so keen 😩

She does hyper focus on a ball and I have one to hand every time she's off lead, though I try not to throw it constantly. I did once accidentally take her to a rabbit field and managed the situation with the ball. So maybe there is hope.

Thanks for the book suggestion @justaboutdonenow it looks perfect.

Simone Mueller book will help you a lot. Explains predatory motor patters and how training and what type of training will helpp.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hunting-Together-Harnessing-Motivation-Based-Substitute-ebook/dp/B0C3BC8DS7

Thank you @KeenOtter that looks brilliant!

This is what she looks like if anyone has a keener eye than me for potential breeds (she's staring at a hedgerow hoping to spot a rabbit 🙈)

Sight hounds have been bred for thousands of years to hunt quarry . I've had and fostered many sight hounds . Some have little or no prey drive , others completely obsessed , most in the middle.

The problem is whatever training you do there will come a time when that thousands of years of breeding will take precedence and you do not know when that will be , near a road, a barbed wire fence , around a small pet.

some of the hounds I've had /fostered I am careful with , always , but I know they have very little prey drive and reliable recall. I start off with a muzzle but then don't use it if they are safe but would never let them off where they could damage themselves if something exciting caught their eye.

Some hounds I would ALWAYS have muzzled outside and would never let off lead unless in a safely enclosed space .

A muzzle lets you and the dog relax , knowing nothing dreadful can happen (providing muzzle fitted correctly). With any sighthound with any degree of prey drive I would always use a muzzle in public . I would never let any sighthound off lead near a road or anywhere it could get into danger. With my present hounds , who have little prey drive, I can , nevertheless, tell when they are getting a little too interested (squirrel ears .... their ears point up) and put them on leads straight away.

Sighthounds are sprinters, not long distance endurance athletes , so keeping them on a lead is no hardship providing they get to run somewhere safe for a while.

In my opinion people do not use muzzles enough , when it is a great way to make a walk a relaxing one not worrying about what could happen.

She has saluki in her. Salukis have great prey drive , an "interesting" attitude to training and recall . I love them but saluki mixes can be challenging.

Honestly, with that mix of breeds I wouldn't be letting her off the lead without a long line attached to her harness, and I certainly wouldn't be letting her off without a muzzle. If she decided to run off you wouldn't be able to chase her - she'd be gone in seconds.

In addition, Salukis and huskies are both known for having high prey drives and incredibly selective recalls. They're also known for being independent and strong willed.

I don't mean that to sound negative - I also have a hunting breed (but scent as opposed to sight) and he's rarely let off the lead because if he catches a scent, he goes deaf and nothing I can do will get him back to me.

Dogs don't need to be off the lead on every walk and they don't need to be without a muzzle to have a good walk and to get good quality exercise. I would focus on doing other things like brain training etc. and then hire a secure field or something for her to run free.

Thank you @Lollygaggle you sound incredibly knowledgable. I do sometimes think about muzzle training, but her sensitive nature has put me off, I really think she would struggle (she's only just stopped running away from her harness, hates a blanket or towel being on her, is in general a bit funny about touch, is a bit head shy etc.). As I'm careful about where I let her off, and she's shown 0% prey drive towards other dogs, I haven't felt the need to distress her. My biggest fear in the countryside would be her ripping herself open on barbed wire chasing a rabbit, so I just don't let her off the lead where there are rabbits. I'm careful about roads too. A muzzle would protect other animals, but atm I use the lead and being vigilant to do that (e.g, I don't let her off in the woods, but plenty of other dog owners do, and don't seem bothered at them chasing squirrels).

Your reply just popped up @fieldsofbutterflies tbh she is rarely off lead, I agree that it's not worth the risk. I only let her off in fields that I've never seen rabbits or cats in, in the day when foxes are asleep, where I can see well and so manage the situation, with a ball to hand which cuts through everything else (she drops it at my feet then lays down, at which point I can put the lead back on if the situation has stopped feeling ideal). I'm definitely a vigilant and wary owner, but I do understand that a cat might one day turn up, a fox in the day, etc, so there is an element of risk. I'm just trying to find the right balance between being safe and meeting her needs (she does need to run). I see traditionally reliable dog breeds popping up on lost pet pages, so there is always risk to letting any dog off.

I didn't know huskies had a strong prey drive! Argh. I know collies and gsds are highly trainable, and she learns super fast. But she does show some independent traits too.

Thanks again, it's all food for thought and I'm not wholly dismissing the idea of a muzzle. I do think even with one I wouldn't let her off in many situations because of other risks like barbed wire.

A family members' husky has killed two sheep before - luckily the farmer was incredibly understanding about it but she had to pay several hundred pounds in compensation each time. They have an incredibly high prey drive and can run for hours if the mood takes them.

If she needs to run then the safest thing to do is to hire a secure field for her where she can be "free" without any risk to the public or other animals. It doesn't need to be everyday but once or twice a week would be fine.

I really, really would consider muzzle training her. It's not a negative thing and if it's done properly it won't cause her any stress or worry. A pet shop can help you find the right fit and design and a trainer can help you with the training - don't rush it, it can take weeks or even months but it can be done.

No helpful response, just wanted to say she's stunning!

@fieldsofbutterflies Now you mention it, I have heard of huskies killing deer. For whatever reason I don't think my girl has much husky in her traits and build. She's very much collie/saluki in temperament, and runs like a sighthound (crazy fast, but with limited stamina).

I really don't think I'm putting the public at risk by carefully giving her five/ten minute bursts of running after a ball or following me to heel in exchange for treats in fairly enclosed non livestock/animal filled locations whilst being vigilant. I knew I would get some longlead/muzzle/private field comments though—because really, if we wanted to mitigate all risk, we'd all follow those steps with our dogs, so in a way it's gold standard advice, and yet most people do risk analysis and choose to take some in exchange for meeting more of their dogs needs.

She's had three spaniels go for her, dogs you never see muzzled (or on leads...). One lab (repeatedly, his owner just will not put him on a lead and he gets exercised in the field by our house). One gsd. A French bulldog. So many on-lead reactive dogs lunging and barking at her. She's submissive towards dogs in comparison. I probably sound defensive, but I'm already putting a lot of steps into place and do take the matter of her prey drive seriously, which is why she's so far not been able to act on it. She wouldn't kill a sheep because she wouldn't be off lead anywhere near a sheep.

What I'd really love to know more about is prey drive in general :) I'm going to order that Hunting Together book and hopefully find a way of turning her prey drive into something we can bond over 🙏

I do know what you're saying about mitigating risk and about other owners not bothering with muzzles or long lines.

But at the end of the day, the only person who is responsible for your dog is you, and the only person who really has to deal with the consequences is you, so the only person who can decide what risks to take is you.

Prey drive is a really difficult thing to overcome in dogs and can be absolutely impossible for some. There are things you can do to focus it - use rabbit fur tugs to keep her focus, for example, or doing a lot of bonding work so that being with you is the best thing ever which will hopefully make her less likely to run off. However sometimes you can do absolutely everything right and but that instinct kicks in and they just go.

My beagle has run off and caught (and killed) a rabbit before now. When he took off, there was absolutely nothing I could do to stop it. His nose went down, his ears switched off and he was just gone. Luckily he was in my sight and luckily there was nowhere dangerous for him to go, but I've known dogs run across motorways or dive into rivers in pursuit of their "prey".

He's now always on a lead unless we're at the beach or we're with other dogs with solid recall.

A big distinction is between hounds with prey drive who are realistic (i.e. will think for a second about whether it’s practical, will chase but stop at fences, brambles etc) and ones who are off and just keep going. Our old boy was a realist but enjoyed a chase - had a fair few rabbits for his tea. He also stopped getting excited about squirrels pretty quickly- they’d be up a tree before he got there. That’s much more in line with how his ancestors in hunting parties would have worked. The ones with huge prey drive who just ran off would have been useless.

Our new boy is still mostly on lead, in training and we’re seeing how he gets on.

I’m slightly sceptical about muzzles. We hear how they’re used to wearing them when they were racing and don’t mind them, but both ours were desperate to pull them off once they were adopted. I’ve also walked quite a number of retired greyhounds in kennels and many of them tried to pull them off. It also means they can’t defend themselves properly if attacked, whether on lead or offlead.

Consider your self lucky, we have an HPR (hunt prey retrieve) weimaer. He's
Not a sprinter, he's a 'I can run for miles and miles and you can do sweet FA to stop me' dog.
But we manage his prey drive by CONSTANT training.
So if he points we have him under control. Preferably before he points actually.
There's a phrase for that has become my mantra which is 'make yourself sexier than a squirrel'.
Basically it's waving your arms and offering such over the top praise when you sense they're about to bolt.
Of course this relies on you really looking at and understanding their body language.
I now don't have headphones in or get distracted on walks because my sole focus is on him and predicting his behaviour and acting before he knows what's happening.

It's exhausting at times but I know that our 15 month old is almost under my control 😂

I've fostered and had a few sighthounds and helped a few friends with theirs. Many have been very abused, have massive trust issues with humans , and are hand shy.

All have been successfully muzzle trained , some have only needed a muzzle whilst being assessed and some will always wear a muzzle out. Wearing a muzzle has a bad rep but a properly fitted muzzle is a very positive thing. The dog feels you relax as you know that even in that safe field that a cat , or rabbit or bird or small animal or medium animal is safe from harm and , in turn , it helps them relax.

In the past I have been caught out with dogs I thought had very little prey drive who chased and caught a cat . Thankfully they ended up worse off than the cat .

I would be very wary of putting a sight hound type dog on a long lead as they can accelerate to very high speed in only a few steps and end up with terrible neck or back injuries from the sudden stop at the end of a lead . Keep them on a short lead , let them sniff and engage brain , then let them run free somewhere that's safe for them and any other creature.

I suppose with muzzle training it comes down to what I'm afraid of. The greyhounds I know that wear muzzles do not understand that non greyhounds are also dogs as they grew up in racing kennels. They think dogs that are smaller and furrier than them are prey. In that case, it's very clear to me why they can't be safely walked around other dogs without wearing a muzzle.

Attacking other dogs is not my fear when I think of prey drive. It's that she will run into barbed wire (a muzzle won't help with that), run into a road (a muzzle won't help with that), and yes, ideally she'd not catch and kill small animals, but the likelihood of that happening, given (i) I'm careful (I won't repeat all the ways, but read my other replies), and (ii) small animals can run/climb etc (it's not like I'm going to stun them with a lamp and set her on them) is slim. I don't really feel motivated to make such a huge change to a dog that likely won't easily accept it for a slim 'what if' scenario. If something dramatic changes (like becoming dog aggressive, or like all the rabbit free fields nearby getting suddenly swamped by rabbits, etc) I'll reconsider.

I agree with the longline @Lollygaggle it's a no go for her, we've both been hurt by them. Even a 5 meter one allows too much acceleration.

@drivinmecrazy I often think 'sexier than a squirrel' a term I heard on here (it's a course isn't it?) but don't know anything more about, other than, it's such a good headset to be in! She lost her recall entirely at around 11 months so I've worked really hard at making myself awesome so she'll come back to me, and she's a dream with a ball, and a dream with zero distractions. I would love to one day be able to walk her in fields with rabbits and be able to easily recall her back, and I'm going to keep training, though I am accepting of the fact that we might just never get there.
(I've also had to stop with headphones and am switched on for most of our walks, extremely so when she's off lead. It is exhausting and I would just love all this work to end up in a reliable off-lead dog, but again, maybe we won't get there... she does have plus points thank goodness 😂she's actually very easy in most other respects, and thankfully walks nicely on the lead, provided we don't see a fox breaking into a run...)

@Definitelyrandom that's so interesting about them being either realistic or not. I fear she's not, as she'll totally dance around the base of trees while squirrels peer down from 15 meters up. I wonder if they develop that from failed attempts, or if it's innate... as she hasn't ever been given a chance to learn her limitations.

@fieldsofbutterflies a rabbit tug looks good. I'd not heard of them before. They're quite pricey, I wonder if anyone can confirm whether they're worth it?

My saluki /deerhound /greyhound

Happy to walk through a field of sheep loose and never looks away from dh.. She is 4 and a half..

@Unluckycat1 we use one for our beagle and he adores it - I think we paid about £15 off Amazon but it was a few years ago.

It's still going though so definitely good value for money.

Oh are we posting pictures of our lovely sight hounds now? I’m inviting myself to that party.

I’d never put a muzzle on mine, he’d hate it and it would be a danger as he charges about in the undergrowth and would stop him being able to play with his ball, a stick or a manky glove/sock/plastic bag he’s managed to find!