Anyone with a male dog that has become more timid/reactive as a result of neutering?

[GoodOldEmmaNess]

I've got a non-neutered 2.5 year old male parson russell terrier. Lovely temperament, no aggression. Following vet advice, I decided not to neuter as a matter of routine but to take a watchful waiting approach and see whether any reason to neuter came up.
The one problem that is becoming more and more evident is that he is extremely interested in investigating the urine scents left behind by some dogs, to the extent that he has doubled back a hundred yards or so on our walks a few times and completely failed to respond to recall.
This is clearly a potentially dangerous situation - with potential for traffic accident, getting lost, causing nuisance to other dogs, etc.
My strong suspicion is that this is a sexually motivated behaviour since my previous, neutered, males didn't do this.
Obviously I have to keep working on recall, but I am beginning to think I should neuter him to be on the safe side.

But I have a big worry: Although not at all aggressive, he is quite wary, especially of big boisterous over-friendly dogs. When he was young he would run away; these days, when really pushed by bozo mutts with no manners, he has on a couple of occasions barked and shown his teeth. This seems to be done in a socially very competant way - it is clearly just a signal (rather than actual aggression) and the other dogs seemed to read it as such (ie they weren't scared of him)
But I am scared that a loss of testosterone might lower his confidence and therefore increase this wariness to the point where he is actually snappy. I know from experience that terriers who don't feel safe can become quite ready with their teeth if they feel the need to stick up for themselves.
Will neutering make this more likely? Will it increase his timidity to the point that his social competance will suffer?

Many thanks for any tips/experiences you can reply with.

I have just decided not to neuter my two year old Lab. All my previous dogs have been done about this age but I am going to wait and see. Mine has a related issue to yours in that he needs to pee on every other dog's mark, which is irritating stopping every ten feet. Also a dog poo eater and I must admit I wondered if less testosterone might reduce that appetite! It also affects his recall (reduces it to zero). But if your boy is wary I would do as we are doing . Mine seems quite immature for two, compared with previous dogs, so a few more years won't hurt there. It's difficult, isn't it?

I'm sorry I have no useful info to add but will be following with interest as my 16 month rescue is very similar on walks with the constant scent seeking! And is himself a boisterous overfriendly pain in the bum!

It's in our rescue contract to neuter but the more I read the more I worry about the impact. It has currently been put on hold by our vet anyway as he's quite small considering his dominant breed.

We're going to try the 6 month implant so we can see the impact it has before deciding

It is very common for timid anxious dogs to be worse after castration.

The only way to find out is the chemical implant as it will wear off.

If you do decide on the implant I would do the 6 months one to see how it goes.

You can then make an inform decision as to whether castration is the way to go.

Very unlikely for castration to stop your dog sniffing other dogs wee - it is not sexual behaviour.

Wee sniffing in more self aware dogs

Thanks, all. The overall tone of responses to far makes me feel a little more hesitant about neutering. I had already considered the chemical castration as a preliminary, and I think that this thread makes me more likely to make that trial run if I do start to move towards the idea of neutering.
i'm not looking to eliminate the wee sniffing btw. I know that is part of being a dog. It's just that he is soooo obsessive. Like he has got a laboratory kit stuffed up his nose and is doing a full chemical work-up of every molecule of wee. He can easily spend five mins zoning out on a single blade of grass. Sometimes I think he has a stash of LSD somewhere and is merrily tripping out on the beauty of piss.

Perhaps the right thing is just to be a little more cautious about off-lead exercise until I have started again from scratch with training the recall. I alreadt have issues around recall when he is in rabbity areas. But that is so much more manageable and predictable because it is quite evident where the rabbity areas are.
He isn't too bad at coming when I whistle, but not good enough.

I have a rescue lab who was 2 years 4 months when I got him. I neutered him after a month, and there's been no change in demeanour. He wasn't the most confident or the most anxious, and no change. He did mark a little less (every other bush now), but sniffing is pretty much a it was. He still likes to pick up pee mail.

I neutered mainly as all the boarding and day care places here won't take complete dogs.

My old dog was an obsessive sniffer, and the kind who peed 50 times on a walk.
Yet he was neutered. Never changed his sniffing behaviour. It was irritating at time but it was manageable. I remembee that I was worried about having a dog that pulls on the lead, well, it was never a problem with him...

Yes, I do. We neutered our beagle and in hindsight I really wish we hadn't. It made his reactivity and anxiety much worse.

He's now on herbal supplements everyday which are making a difference - his anxiety is improving but it's a long road.

My large breed, anxious dog got worse after neutering. Lots of variables involved here, because we didn't start working with a behaviourist until about 6 months after neutering (at which point things got better) so perhaps it was always going to happen, but it certainly didn't improve the situation and in hindsight I'd have waited longer. It did improve the wee sniffing though. That was about the only thing that it changed!

It's hard to know what to do for the best.
It used to be neuter because they'll be frustrated and badly behaved if you don't , now it's don't do it at all unless you absolutely have to.
My boy is a contradiction. Doesn't hump anything but obsessed with sniffing and other dogs. Very playful friendly and confident with most dogs, very barky reactive and growling with some intact males, has had a few scraps. Flighty and a bit nervous with some people and does the classic nervous barking and cowering down . Very friendly with most people. Jumps a foot in the air if you accidentally touch him with for example a cupboard door, totally unfazed by fireworks, huge lorries, gunshots, crowds. Loves going out and about, hates having his collar put on.
He's having the implant to see how he goes.
It's also a good point about dog boarding/ day care, I've found someone who will take an entire dog but it's £70 a day because he'd be the only dog!

We did this. He's less boisterous than before and doesn't run up into other dogs faces so much so a little more timid but that's no bad thing. Still confident, not reactive. We're going to get it done properly soon

All of these responses have been so helpful. Thank you very much. Sorry to hear of the difficulties that a couple of you have had after neutering. I hope things continue to improve for you.
I think I will continue to hold off on neutering.
As you say, Sunflowers, it is hard to know what to do for the best. There are risks either way. I guess I just have to learn to accept that and take a sensible, balanced approach to risk minimisation. I think that may involve being a little more tolerant of having my dog on-lead for part of his walks.
There is one doggy footpath crossroads in particular where a whole housing estate worth of mutts lay out their pee mails (thank you for that term @HappiestSleeping ). That's where my dog TWICE doubled back the other day - the second time a couple of hundred yards - to spend some more time checking all the messages . For a while I didn't know which way he had gone - forward to the rabbits or backwards to his pee mail inbox. And I was so frightened of losing him.

Places like that, I should put him onlead for safety. I have this daft reluctance to do that - a fantasy that I should have things so much under control that I only need the lead for roadsides. I can work towards that fantasy with more recall training but I must also accept that it may be unachievable in practice.

If you haven't already, check out Pippa Mattinson's book, Total Recall. It's very good. Also Steve Mann has a few good recall videos on his YouTube channel.

It should be achievable.

P.s.
The other one I like is that they are checking 'nosebook' and leaving their number for other dogs 😂

I was in exactly your situation, no behavioural issues at all so we made the decision NOT to have our boy done.

But then the interest in urine scent progressed from he was 2.5/3 to by the time he was 4 he was visibly distressed when there was a female in season nearby.

He would sit at the window/door and cry, go off his food and even have diarrhoea/an upset tummy.

In the end we had him done and it hasn't changed his personality or temperament at all, but has stopped the anxiety around females in season!!

Speak to your vet and try the hormone implant - that's what we did first. It goes in the back of the neck and lasts around 6-9 months, stops the production of testosterone so will give you an idea of how he will be post castration. It's temporary so if you don't like it you know not to have him permanently done, once it wears off he will go back to normal.

@GoodOldEmmaNess one other thing that occurs to me. If there are spots where your boy regularly goes back to sniff, why not preempt it, and return him back almost before he wants to himself? You could add a cue of 'go sniff' or something? After all, it is a very natural thing for a dog to want to do, and sniffing uses their brain and thus is also exercising the dog.

That's a good suggestion, and thanks for the book suggestion, happiestsleeping.

@FrangipaniBlue that sounds like exactly the trajectory I'm afraid of. It seems that you made exactly the right decision & improved your dog's welfare a lot. I will watch out for those signs of distress. They would certainly make me veer more towards neutering.
Could I ask whether the hormone implant was painful as it went in? I imagine it is quite a thick needle? (Another thing I fret about is my dog becoming vet-hostile. My last dog, also a PRT, was awful, awful, awful at the vet, due to fear.)

It is interesting, isn't it, that these behaviours didn't kick in until 2.5 to 4 years old, given that dogs are sexually mature much earlier than that. There must perhaps be a learning/experience element to it n addition to simply being driven by hormones. I wonder if nature keeps sexual behaviours quite muted in young adult dogs, untill they start to be old enough to begin to aquire the social status that brings greater access to mating opportunities. (Massively uninformed speculation on my part.)

Sent whippet in for castration, got sent straight back home as deemed too nervous and "he needs all the help he can get".

Never had an entire dog before but it's ok. He's still very nervous, doesn't roam and only irritates our elderly female dog a bit...definitely more dog than the done one but not as bad as I feared.

The needle was quite thick but I imagine it might vary depending on dose? My boy is a 36kg bull breed so I imagine needs a bigger dose/implant that your JRT 😁

He did yowl/make a fuss but to be honest he's a big baby, he yowls if he stubs a toe 🙄

My vet told me that all male dogs were into scent sniffing and scent marking and getting him neutered would not make a jot of difference. We were advised against it as he's quite anxious. I've also heard accounts of people trying the implant and the dog being negatively affected and not going back to normal even after it has worn off so if you are thinking about doing that I'd do some research first

We gave our slightly anxious boy the implant. It made him very itchy but no more anxious. He had a year after as he was never especially problematic, but at 3ish he started shagging his chosen toy much more regularly and then started sticking his nose in the backsides of girl dogs and following them like a train with zero recall, so the nuts came off at 3.5. He is the same chap he ever was.

Most behaviours that people think are driven by sex hormones are not.
eg
humping
marking
sniffing other dogs urine
roaming

Neutered dogs will still have sex.
Female dogs will hump etc

Male neutered dogs will hump female dogs when they have UTI
Itchy dogs of either sex will hump and mount things
Methyl paraben can be present in female urine and many neutered dogs will react and mount the female. it is also present in some shampoos the result is the same for the person who used it.......

Testosterone is blamed for many dogs behaviours and generally it is not the source of the behaviour.

I very much doubt that behaviours kicking in a 2.5 or 4 years of age will be down to testosterone if it is the first time the behaviours have been noted. Nature does not keep sexual behaviour muted in any mammals that I a aware of.

Quite common unfortunately neutering/spaying can bring on behaviour changes , weight gain (and loss I think?) and medical conditions + more.