Help - young dog turning on old one

[helpyhelperton]

I have an 11 yr old schnauzer DG1 and a 2 year old mixed breed (poodle and shitzhu) DG2. Both female.

About a year ago DG2 went for DG1 when she sniffed her food bowl. I got really upset but was advised it's quite a normal thing.

Not happened since.

3 times in the last week (all when I'm not in the room and other family members are). DG2 has randomly gone for DG1. No food, toys or people involved.

She just snaps, screams (I've heard it not seen it) gnashes teeth, goes to bite her and then backs off.

DG1 seems confused and DG2 'looks' guilty.

This little dog is usually the sweetest, friendliest dog. Really calm and usually submissive to DG1.

Apparently, DG1, just now, turned to look at something (a tissue) and it seemed to make DG2 react - I can't be sure of the timings as I'm relying on 2 upset children to fill me in.

Please help - I'll book the vets to see if there's anything obvious with her - maybe making her feel ill?

I can't have this - poor old DG1 is just a typical old dog, can't see very well, in pain a lot with her back and doesn't really do much - certainly doesn't invoke anger in others. She barks a lot but was calm each time this has happened.

I'm so upset - what is the best thing to do?

Sadly the fact that she's still eating and drinking doesn't necessarily mean she's okay.

If she's starting to look and sound different that could be quite scary for your younger dog - they can also sense when someone thing isn't "right" and sadly their instinct isn't always to protect the weaker one.

Took little dg2 to vets tonight- it happened again today twice when I was at work.

Vet said no external signs of anything but thinks she's extremely anxious???

She was very nervous with them - had a blood test and was very hard to handle / I did say she had her anal glands squeezed when she was last there….

I really don't know what it is / it's not like fear because they aren't always near each other when it happens. They're around each other now quite calmly.

It's just so odd. I spoke to DG1 vets - they said she was ok clinically at last appt and that there's not really anything they could do. They were lovely and gave me behaviourist's details.

They thought it was very odd.

dg1's vet first tried to say she was a covid dog and not socialised - she wasn't - she was June 2021 and very much socialised. Then said she's reached maturity so could be a dominance thing - but I need to tried some natural things for anxiety - more exercise, stimulation. Good sleep patterns etc...

This is a very sudden and bizarre change in behaviour. I really thought they'd say she had an infection or an injury/sore we hadn't spotted. The blood test will show anything serious I guess.

I wouldn't be very impressed with the vet who said there was nothing they could do about it re. your older dog.

When your dog was last at the vets, did they do blood tests? Have they checked to make sure her lumps are fatty and nothing sinister? Have they given her a thorough MOT for pain and made sure her medication is up to date and working?

Honestly, I would be finding a new vet and getting your old dog looked at properly. Don't accept being fobbed off.

I did just give a brief synopsis of a long phone call.

We talked about the lumps etc and that they've looked and appear to be fatty- she has a few others on her body and they've been drawn off and checked - but all ok.

Dg1 is no different than 6 months ago except for the more nasal breathing and the 2 new lumps. If anything, she's more spritely and seems less in pain? I agree that she should have bloods done - I will get that done at next appt.

I think the vet was saying that they'd only take her temp and do her vitals which they did last week.

They said she could have an MRI but they wouldn't be looking for anything specific.

I feel that she doesn't need another anaesthetic at her age - she had one in Sept for a grass seed removal and several last year when they discovered her spinal problem.

I'll see how the next few days goes with helping dg2 with the 'anxiety' and see how things are.

I wish they could talk.

If your younger dog does have anxiety it won't be a quick fix - it's something that will be with her for life, so you may be looking at permanent management in the home if that's the case.

I'm just so sad and worried. Sad that this little doggy might be suffering and nervous and that my old girl isn't well. Worried that one will hurt the other one.

Don't understand the change.

What can I do about the anxiety though? I've dealt with it in humans A LOT. Is it the same process?

Is the younger dog spayed?

Anxiety will not be fixed in a few days.

But loads you can do to help.

Increase sleep as much as possible

Bring in loads of sniffing - for food or toys but food initially

Look at exercise - if you do stop any ball throwing or high energy chasing or high energy walks.

Bring in slow sniffy walks

Give the dog down time on their own (if they are happy on their own) let them just be.

Introduce chewing or chewy toys BUT make sure this is when the dog is on their own and that you can leave the dog alone whilst they are chewing. Watch carefully at how this session is finished - this could be really bad advice as not seen the situation in real life so manage it carefully with the other dog not around

Hopefully behaviourist will be able to help asap.

Dont get too tied up in human emotions about how the dog feels etc etc just work on making things calmer and taking the pressure of both dogs.

She is spayed.

She isn't a high energy dog! She's little so does potter but she's a generally calm, chilled doggy.

There's no other signs of anxiety in her that I can see. Friendly towards all dogs and people. Not jumpy when the door goes (other dog does bark tho and she occasionally copies).

She needs more sleep, I think - I also think she's not getting w high exercise at the moment (old dog is so slow and sniffy, it takes ages and not always possible for little dog to be off lead).

Without the snapping, I would have NO concerns about this dog.

My own dog is anxious and there's no easy fix - most of it is about managing his environment and avoiding his triggers.

In terms of exercise she doesn't need lots of high energy runs - sniffy walks and enrichment are good for anxious dogs. If your older girl is too slow you'll probably need to start doing separate walks.

Enforcing naps is really important too - mine is nearly six and I still make sure he gets two or three long naps a day.

God please don’t listen to this bollocks about dominance, pack hierarchy, submission and all that crap - it’s been thoroughly debunked. Dangerous, outdated advice

I would get a room divider (you can get one from Argos) and separate them for a start. Feed them in separate rooms, no toys or treats near each other and don’t let them be near each other if you aren’t supervising them. You need to prevent them being able to approach each other in the short term especially if it’s ramping up. My two dogs did nothing but wrestle when I first got them and the room divider was a godsend

i would have a look for a force free, up to date behaviourist who doesn’t ascribe to the pack nonsense. I would also go on the dog training advice and support Facebook page, have a read through their guides and put a post up of there’s nothing helpful in there. They also have guidance about finding a behaviourist in your local area

Can you walk them separately to let the little dog have more off lead time?

It happened again in the night - we're sleeping with one or both of them in our room to keep an eye (apart).

Older dog came up on the bed settled down near her but not touching her and little dog snapped.

I'm upstairs getting ready with older dog, little dog has just come over, tail wagging, sniffing older dog's mouth and sitting next to her. No signs of any anxiety at all or bother. They are laying down closely asleep. I'm watching them, obviously.

It just doesn't make sense.

Wouldn't the little dog stay away from the big one?

I hate this. I will look at the previous posts' advice and will read up more on this.

2 Yorkshire terrier mixes that we've known over the last 11 years have hated DG1 - she seems to trigger something in them. When she's just been walking around slowly, or sniffing near them - they've both gone for her - in a big way, one drew blood. Maybe she gives off something? This isn't a normal thing - all other dogs rub alongside her well?

Thank you for all the advice. I'm so strung out by this.

They need to bring kept completely separate at this point. Supervision clearly isn't cutting it.

I also hate to say it but bitches can (and do) fight to the death. Once they take against each other it can be very difficult to stop them.

We the saying goes, dogs fight to breed, bitches fight to breathe.

Wouldn't the little dog stay away from the big one?

No, not necessarily. Anxiety and related behaviours are rarely logical.

Sorry for the multiple posts but I notice you mentioned your younger dog wagging its tail - that doesn't necessarily mean she's happy and can also be a sign of appeasement or fear..

No way would I have the dogs together at the moment. It is just asking for the situation to escalate.

Give them a good while to decompress and relax without being in each others company. I mean days or maybe weeks

Can you crate one or both of them at night? From what you say it seems to be escalating

this is the link to the Facebook group

📸 Look at this post on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/share/uutHBe2j6Nm6ssBi/?mibextid=K35XfP

"Older dog came up on the bed settled down near her but not touching her and little dog snapped."

If the little dog is resource guarding, then the big dog getting up into the space would have provoked her. You need to not let either of them up on the bed if that's a trigger point.

I'm so upset - I can't stop crying - I'm so worried about this.

I wish someone who knew them was an expert and can see how weird this is and it doesn't make any sense.

I'm obviously missing loads of signs here but I have a very much adored little dog and a dear, old best friend who the kids have grown up with and love and who isn't particularly well.

It's horrid. It's like your kids fighting but having absolutely no idea how to sort it.

I will keep them separately and I have applied to join the FB group.

I just don't understand the change. If I knew what it was it would really help.

A friend has suggested the older dog is smelling differently?

No change in food, treats or anything.

I will take older dog to vets, I will ask them to do bloods etc

The separation needs to be long term and potentially permanent - not just something you do a day or two.

The more you let them be together and allow the attacks to happen, the more at risk your older dog is of being badly hurt - or worse.

Both dogs need thorough vet checks at an absolute minimum. I would also be concerned about cancer or neurological changes in your old dog:

Vet just called and said her bloods show high glucose (not high enough for diabetes). This proves stress.

I asked if that would show anyway because she was so nervous about being in the vet? She said hard to tell but she obviously seemed more stressed than other dogs?

What I forgot to say is that this little dog has a bizarrely good memory / if we go somewhere she likes once - she will always try to go there (think went to a pub once and no tries ti pull in every time we walk past).

I wonder if older dog has done something and she's holding a grudge? She also runs away when harness comes out and rolls on her belly / I thought it was excitement but it could be anxiety? Maybe someone has caught her with the harness.

Have an appt for old dog now.

I wonder if older dog has done something and she's holding a grudge?

It's not helpful to apply human emotions to your dog. Dogs do associate certain things with certain emotions (so their ball/toys with play and excitement, or the vacuum cleaner with loud noises and maybe fear) but they don't hold "grudges" - it's just basic association.

She also runs away when harness comes out and rolls on her belly / I thought it was excitement but it could be anxiety? Maybe someone has caught her with the harness.

Or she knows that her harness means walks and she's anxious and fearful about going outside into the big wide world.

I just don't think she's like that. She's raring to go at the door - gets very excited on her walks to see and sniff things, never stays round our legs or anything. Confident with people approaching and other dogs....

No vet but high glucose levels can indicate way more than stress, infections hormone imbalances etc. Was the glucose discovered in the urine. Are blood results back in yet?

I just don't think she's like that. She's raring to go at the door - gets very excited on her walks to see and sniff things, never stays round our legs or anything. Confident with people approaching and other dogs....

My own dog is anxious (and medicated) and behaves just like that on walks...

Anxiety in dogs doesn't just manifest itself in one way - it varies depending on the dog, the situation, the human (and how they behave), the weather - all sorts of different things.