Anxious puppy = anxious dog?

[BleakGarden]

I've been posting on the puppy thread but thought I would pop a post on here to see if anyone has been through something similar.

We have a 12 week old puppy and 3 year old dog. Pup has been fully vaccinated since Tuesday this week so we've been getting her out on the lead (rather than carrying her) and it's becoming apparent that she's very anxious. Pre Tuesday we did some socialisation in arms (school runs, cafes) and I did notice then that she would shake at times. She is heavy and initially hated the car so I perhaps didn't do enough socialisation before 12 weeks.

She shakes, whines and climbs up my leg in new environments and around new people, but she is most distressed by other dogs. We have been to puppy school and at the end of the hour she had started to relax, but she was too close to threshold for any actual training and was very wary of the other pups. The other puppies seemed much more relaxed than she did.

We had an incident today where a very over-zealous puppy wouldn't leave her alone and the owner was unable to recall him, she was clearly scared and crying out, I wasn't sure if I should pick her up, but she resorted to growling and snapping and the puppy then left her alone. I'm not sure how worried I should be about this at her age. I've spoken to the trainer from puppy school and I am going to increase the distance between her and other dogs, reward calm behaviour etc.

I'm just wondering if anyone else had a puppy like this, and if there is any chance it's a developmental phase?

What breed is she and what are her parents like in these kind of situations?

12 weeks is a baby!

We took our 12 week old pup to her first training class. She sat on my lap just overloaded with what was going on. We just watched and fed her treats. Fast forward a year and last night she dragged me in, barking and whining with excitement and managed her minute stay twice, walk around distractions focusing on me, a recall and controlled entries. Plus she flopped down and chilled between exercises.

Take it slowly at pup's pace. Try to make sure she only meets calm and polite dogs who don't overwhelm her. Pick her up if she is scared (we did and I still do sometimes and it does not harm confidence in any way). Show her you will fix her problems. Make sure the other dog can't scare her by grabbing it. She will get there.

It's normal for puppies to be nervous but extreme anxiety can be a result of poor genetics, poor socialisation and bad breeding - only you know whether any of that is the care for your puppy.

What socialisation have you done with her up to now? Have you been taking her out in your arms or a sling?

She's a GSP, so will be reasonably big and have lots of energy. Her parents have friendly temperaments but we only met them in the home environment, the breeder has a farm so I'm not sure how often they're out of home and in unfamiliar territory. I contacted the breeder yesterday to ask if either parent was nervous as a puppy, she hasn't got back to me yet.

We took her to cafes and the DC's school in arms per 12 weeks. Initially I thought she was cold but no realise she was shaking with fear most of the time. She gets very upset when separated from me and so the car has been a struggle but she's managed to get past that now. She's fine with people coming into the house.

Following the trainer's advice I took her out this morning to somewhere she could observe dogs at a distance. We got out of the car and no one was there, but she was already over threshold - refusing food and shaking.

I found a bench, put her on my lap and settled her to the point where she started taking treats. A dog walker appeared in view and she growled, but when she realised the dogs weren't approaching she started taking treats. Then a horse came past and the same thing. I decided she was shaking too much so was preparing to leave when a runner (male) came into view and she was well over threshold then, barking and growling, unable to break her focus from him and look at me.

I'm really worried. I have 3 DCs and a 3 year old dog that needs a lot of exercise - I have to take her to commons etc to get a run. I can't manage a high energy dog that cannot be around unfamiliar dogs or people. If I had a lot of land maybe I could, but our garden is not huge.

Is the breeder a proper registered breeder? Only it's unusual to own both parents.

She sounds incredibly anxious and overwhelmed if she's lunging and growling at such a young age.

Yes she's a registered breeder, sorry should have been clearer. The sire didn't live with her.

DH thinks I'm panicking and need to give it time, but she's fine in the house so he hasn't seen any of her anxious behaviour (apart from not wanting me to leave the room)

Stop panicking. Really it's such early days. Dogs are very perceptive - if you worry then so will she.

GSPs are highly intelligent, therefore sensitive dogs. It's not unusual for them to be like this at all. I have taught a few.

It may not be fear - it may be frustration (terrier owner here - I know all about that!). The two do need dealing with in the same way, at least initially.

You really just need to keep taking her to see things but at a distance where she will take treats. That may be only just within sight and you can move closer the more confident she becomes. You are going to get it wrong - we all do but just learn from it.

Have you tried taking out and doing calming things like scattering food so she has to sniff. That can really help.

If she has come from even a relatively good breeder then the chances of her being like this long term are slim.

As margotrose I agree a degree of nervousness in puppies is usual as they get used to the world around them but that level of anxiety, without an obvious single event learning bad experience, may possibly indicate that it's genetic and/or that she didn't receive effective habituation/socialisation while still with the breeder. If the parents are exercised on the farm and are rarely put into the situations you're expecting your puppy to be in now, it's possible that they too would be nervous or reactive but it's been 'hidden' by their lifestyle.

Equally, I asked the breed as it can also be a reasonably normal developmental stage in some (GSDs, I'm looking at you) and something that just has to be ridden out while they go through their various ridiculous and handler-terrifying fear periods. If that's the case then this is very early days.

Some dogs are sensitive, socially selective and naturally reactive and traditional free-for-all 'socialiastion' is the absolute last thing they need. They need to learn that there's no expectation of greeting other dogs or people, that they are just uninteresting background happenings, and that you can be relied upon to advocate for them on this, and also for producing interesting treats and toys and fun interactions. A good breeder or someone knowledgeable in the breed, or a good experienced dog trainer, will be able to tell you if this is the case for yours or if there's something more going on.

Hmm, while I do think some degree of worry and nerves is normal in a puppy, I have to say I've never met one who behaved in the way described by OP.

A bit of shaking and hiding behind the owner, yes, very common, but not outright growling, snarling and lunging towards people? No, not so much.

Now, that obviously doesn't mean the puppy is going to be like this forever but I would want to get professional help in sooner rather than later, especially with the socialisation window closing in a matter of weeks.

Personally I don't think breeds like GSP's are suitable for most pet homes - they're working dogs who need a job and plenty of company as they're prone to separation anxiety.

I was not concerned until reading she growled and snapped when afraid, as that sounds like the start of fear aggression.

We have a dog from a nervy breed and we did a lot, but kept it at a level well below where the dog would be stressed or panic. At that point they don’t learn anything. For example, ours hated traffic so we kept the window open at rush hour to get used to the noise and also took the dog out in the car in a bed with treats. Built up very slowly to walks that crossed roads, then walks along roads.

It can be normal, depending on the dog. It may be it's not fear at all and it's play. My pup looked ferocious when she was trying to play with anything when she was little. Lots of people think barking and lunging = fear but not always.

If you are concerned, enlist a trainer to actually come with you and see for themselves and then give you some ideas of things to try for your situation. ABSOLUTELY NO PUNISHMENT OR FLOODING. That will make things worse.

To a degree, puppies are nervous of anything new. We have had 7 puppies. Got one now. 14 weeks (red/white border collie) we took her out in a backpack on our front very soon after getting her,so she got used to sights and sounds. We walk on the beach (nearby) our previous BC were terrified of the sound of the sea, didn't want that happening again,they are renown as being nervous reactive. Of course a dogs hearing is so much more acute that ours,they get overwhelmed/overloaded. I never pick up a dog, not even our last one who was a toy breed,and only 4kg as an adult.School runs and cafes are way too much,to start with. Go for quieter environments, gradually build up to noise.

Thanks everyone for your input. I've just contacted a breed specific trainer. I am kicking myself over the puppy incident yesterday, he was overzealous but not aggressive. But she was clearly very frightened and felt she had to get aggressive to defend herself.

I do think what I'm seeing is not normal, I'm not an expert by any means but I've had a few dogs in my time. Including our 3 year old GSP who was not without her challenges. She did go through some fearful phases, but they weren't accompanied by growling, lunging etc. I wonder if I should update the breeder, I know there were other people interested in her and they may have been working homes. I know it's early and I really don't know how things will play out over time with careful desensitisation. It feels taboo even mentioning it at this early stage, but if we can't cope with her, she's got more chance of being rehomed while she's still little.

Only you can decide that but please make sure the 'breed specific trainer' does not use punishment. An awful lot do still. She doesn't need to be punished. She needs to learn you have her back and she's not going to come to any harm.

Thanks @Newpeep will do, her actual obedience is pretty good (apart from a bit of jumping up) so hopefully the trainer wouldn't suggest corrections for fear based reactivity. I'll be looking elsewhere if they do

It can be normal, depending on the dog. It may be it's not fear at all and it's play. My pup looked ferocious when she was trying to play with anything when she was little. Lots of people think barking and lunging = fear but not always.

I've genuinely never met a puppy who lunged, growled and snarled while it was trying to play with another.

Do they bark, lunge and maybe yip with excitement? Yes, sure. Do they bounce around on their back legs trying to meet other dogs? Absolutely. But growling and snarling is a whole new ball game and has the potential to become very dangerous, very quickly.

Yes she sounds like a savage beast when she plays with my older dog, but that's play, as frantic as it sounds.

The growling we've experienced in the last few days is different, she's been fearful in the run up and it's much lower. The snarling before the snap at the puppy was not something I'd heard before but it was unmistakably aggressive. She was very afraid poor pup, if I'd removed her when she started whining it wouldn't have happened. I messed up because the other puppy wasn't being aggressive, just far too playful for her

Just an update that I have spoken to a vet behaviourist and have the details of an HPR trainer who specifically rehabilitates reactive dogs.

We are backing off socialisation briefly for now.

Thanks again everyone. I feel calmer today. I'll let you know how we get on.

Good luck OP, it sounds like you're doing all the right things.

Good luck. It’s the route I’d go down. Hopefully they can either reassure you it’s normal or come up with a plan for if it’s not. Either way the ‘aggressive’ puppies I’ve encountered in running classes have all come good in the end.

Well, after some input from the behaviourist we've had progress already if you can believe it. We did an actual outdoor walk today where she was approached by a few polite dogs with no obvious signs of distress from her. It's early days but I'll take it. Things we tried - going at a quiet time, an adaptil collar that's been on for a few days, also a few days of Zylkene under her belt, walking with two familiar dogs (our older dog and my mum's dog) and just keeping on moving, minimal verbal reassurance but plenty of treats. She was uncertain and vocalising at times but she'd recover, when the group wasn't reacting to something she was unsure of and just walking past it, that seemed to reassure her. There was lots of playful exploration in there too. I'm feeling a lot more positive now, thanks everyone again for the advice.