Crate training not working (understatement)

[onmylastnerve90]

Hi, I really need some advice on how you approached and were successful with crate training please.

We brought our 8 week old puppy home 3 days ago and I am worried we’ve fostered a negative association with her crate and want some advice.

We’ve watched so many videos and read so many articles that advise after food and exercise to put the puppy in the crate and ignore whines and it will settle and sleep. Well, she’s not settling. 😫She starts with quiet whimpers and then she’s almost screaming the place down! The longest we could leave her like it was 15 minutes, it was heartbreaking! 😥 We also thought the police or neighbours would be knocking in the door as it sounds like someone is being murdered.

We are so close to just packing it in. (Crate training I mean) It’s the same throughout the night. I think we got about 3 hours sleep every night so far.

We end up taking her out to go potty, sometimes she goes sometimes not, she’s fed, watered etc so think she’s just wanting company and not used to it. Does it get better?

I’m worried she sees it as punishment so tempted to just put her in there when she falls asleep to try and recreate a sense of safety and a positive place. Only issue is, are we then making a rod for our own back? as when we need to get tasks done around the house or work (we both WFH) or when just one of us is here, she won’t be used to being put in her crate.

Any help would be appreciated. Happy to be told we are doing it all wrong or that we just have to suck it up and continue.

Thank you, a very tired and worried puppy Mum.

I’ve never used a cage but IMO if you are leaving a puppy to whimper / whine you are setting yourself up for a dog with separation anxiety . Would you leave a baby in a Moses basket crying - it’s really no different .

the poor thing has been taken away from its mother and siblings and now is in a strange place with no comfort. Of course shes going to cry. Think of her like a new born baby. you wouldn’t just shove a baby in a room and shut the door all night.

Also crates and their overuse are appalling. Plenty of us have had moultuple dogs and never felt the need to lock them in a small cage.

https://themuttyprofessor.co.uk/2017/07/20/crate-debate-crate-not-crate/

“Dogs are polyphasic sleepers. This means they sleep in short periods, like to get up and move around as well as changing positions.
Changing surfaces that they sleep on also helps them regulate their temperature.
Therefor, crating dogs goes against their natural way of sleeping and removes all option of them fulfilling this instinctive behaviour.”

Yes, you are doing it wrong.
Look for the dog training advice and support group on fb.
There are several of that name. You want the one that has a book of the same name.
There are lots of files that are free to access and very informative.
The group is run by qualified behaviorists and trainers.

We tried then binned the crating.
We have stair gates everywhere in our house so can shut off our 9 month old whenever we need to.
It works so much better for us, even though we know he can jump them if he so wishes 😂
When he was tiny everything I read said that crate training was the be all and end all.
It's not necessarily true.
I also have fiends who have ditched the crates in the early weeks and have had no issue introducing them later.
Personally I think your pup is too young, unless there's a specific reason you want to use it

Yep. Expect it to take weeks if not months of slowly building value and the dog choosing to be in it.

I crate train as I’m an agility competitor and it’s useful but for the average pet owner it’s more trouble than it’s worth. A pen and bed is better.

Thanks for your reply. I’ve watched YouTube vids from professional dog trainers and behaviourists who said the opposite (so going to them when they whine reinforces idea that they can just whine and they’ll get attention/be let out etc) They also say that doing this CAUSES separation anxiety, so it’s all very confusing!

@drivinmecrazy Thank you, it’s true all the experts seem to say they are the be all and all. To us it made sense as didn’t want her having free roam of the bedroom while we were asleep and possibility eating something that harms her or harming herself in another way. It also was appealing in that if I’m home on my own I can get on with things knowing she’s safe.

I personally don't believe in crate training.

But you still need to make sure pup is safe. With my dog, night time was in a large pen, no barrier on top. It almost destroyed me, but for the first 2 weeks I was up every 3 hours for a toilet puppy break. It meant she was toilet trained very quickly, but also seemed to work well for re-assurance, no night time crying.

If you continue with the crate, it shouldn't be a space to put/lock away your dog when working. That's not the purpose of the crate! I suggest instead planning mini walks (I did morning/lunch/after work/after dinner) with lots of positive training and play time. Work to having pup sleeping with time for engagement. Pups should be sleeping most of the day for their development - try to work to this.

Crate training is meant to be fun, we played games with ours out kibble in it for him to find (part of his food) we have a dvd re crate games and it was pure fun door was never shut or locked it was not a punishment or any upset from pup or crying. Pop a pen round so it’s a safe space but not as small but make it fun 3 days is nothing tbh
keep him close to you he’s used to being with his mum and siblings to being closed into a cage alone. No wonder it’s not working

Crate training done properly is amazing and definitely works. We brought our puppy home in a small canvass kennel with blankets and toys from the breeder, that smelled of mum. For the first few weeks the canvass kennel was her bed and she settled into it immediately. Dogs naturally seek out cosy, safe places to rest and sleep. When it was time to move on, we put the crate where the kennel had been. We covered it in blankets on top and the sides and put in her bed and toys from the kennel. She took to it right away. House training was easy, as she had all her naps in the crate and we could watch and train the rest of the time. The crate kept her safe until she came out into a comfy basket at eight months.

There's a big difference between a little bit of whimpering and full on screaming.

It can takes weeks (if not months) to properly crate train a dog and even then, many don't take it to properly.

You need to lots and lots (and lots) of positive association with the crate. Feed her meals in there, give her treats in there, spend time with her near/in the crate with the door open giving her lots of praise and fuss. Let her play with her toys in there. Put a lovely comfortable bed and blanket in there with something that smells of you. Teach her that crates are all about positive, nice things.

But even if you do all of that, you still need to sleep next to your puppy at night and provide reassurance. Some people sleep downstairs with their puppies and slowly move away, others put the crate upstairs and then slowly move it away as the puppy grows and settles.

I trained as a behaviourist 10 years ago. Letting a dog, let alone puppy cry wasn’t part of my syllabus.

Stress hormones inhibit learning. If your dog is anything more than mildly unsure they are not leaning other than it’s scary and they are going to die. There are very good ways to crate train but distress isn’t one.

That’s not crate training - and anyone you’ve found online saying that’s how you should do it isn’t worth following.

Trainer and behaviourist aren’t protected titles, you could literally decide to be one tomorrow and legally you can call yourself one.

Crate training shouldn’t involve any crying or whining.

The Facebook group recommended unthread is good... but tbh, google crate training, every dog welfare and even pet food companies have short guides on how to do it properly.

We have always let our puppies follow us if they so wished, mostly ignoring them going about our day. They tend to be very clingy at first. Eventually, they realise all this flitting about is tiring and boring and that I’m going nowhere. I quite often do things like pop outside the front door for a second and come back in, building it up. Within a few weeks every puppy (or rescue/foster) I’ve had has been fine being left in a separate room to us or at home. My current ones choose to go off for peace so being glued to me at first did no harm.

Ive never had a problem with anxiety, destruction or separation. To me, separating and not allowing them a way to learn that it’s okay is going to cause a problem.

You really need a behaviourist at this point to show you the correct way to crate train. If your puppy is upset in any way you’re not doing it correctly IMO.

I'm not sure if you can say you "don't believe in crate training" it's not father Christmas.

It is evidenced to work. It creates feelings of safety. Mostly it seems those who don't like their dog in a crate put themselves in a crate with stair gates everywhere 🫤

If they aren't settling to sleep they either aren't tired enough or they need a companion. I used a warm hot water bottle with a cuddly toy. Make the bed space small and cover it over to reduce stimulus and make a den.

Oh poor you and poor puppy. That's not how it should be done at all.

We used Susan Garrett's crate games. Encourage inside with treats, shut the door for literally a second, open it again. Then 3 seconds, etc.

It took us about 2 days before our puppy was willing to sleep for long periods in it, and by day 3 was sleeping in it all night (with toilet breaks). We have a pen around the crate so that in the day time she can choose. She mostly chooses the crate.

Shame on you OP , I think this is cruel.

Read the OP. @onmylastnerve90 had watched videos and read articles that suggested putting the sleepy puppy in the crate. It hasn't worked and she is here, on this thread, asking for advice. She is not being cruel, she is being new to puppy ownership.

Useful.

we did crate training, but only at night. Our 3 year old lives his crate at night and rarely woofs to get out even late in the morning.

we have a fugue approach where we put a cover over it.

basically we did the same as the kids. Said it’s night time, he went in th me crate and we ignored him.

@muchalover i don’t think you can compare a few stair gates on the doors of rooms to a cage .

Our lab loves her crate, happily retreats there to rest during the day and can't wait for biscuits at bedtime to sleep there. She's 2.5 so most dogs I believe have given up crates by now but she's perfectly happy so we're sticking with it.

I highly recommend Easy Peasy Puppy Squeasy for fun games and techniques to help get used to the crate. It definitely does not involve leaving them to whine and cry.

The FB group pp mentioned is excellent for all aspects of training.

We were advised to use the crate and observed 2 big dogs going in to one small crate for an example. We went away thinking it was awful but did try it for one night, poor puppy being away from Mum first time, no way, she was brought straight out and has slept with us always. Personally and with a long history of dogs and cats, they need love and security, how can they get that from being in a dark prison with no contact? Absolutely no from me!

I often think it's down to dog preference. My lab loved his crate, slept in it for years - of his own choice as after a certain time door was never shut. Springer hated his. Cockerpoo hated hers and never slept in one. Current 10 week old cocker spaniel loves his. He goes in it if his own choice when he's tired, with door open. Bed time he puts himself to bed after last wee and poo at 10:30/11:00 and we don't hear a peep from him until the morning.

Luck of the draw.

I do have a plug in adaptil in his room so think this may have helped any anxiety.

We got a large crate when we brought our 2 sibling puppies home. My DH slept in the sitting room on a camp bed to take them out to wee every 3 hours in the night for the first month. Then in the second month every 4 hours. By 3 months they had settled and he came back to bed. By 4 months or so they were house trained. We have a large cat flap they can go outside to wee in the garden. We stopped using the crate when they were 6 months old but from 3 months old they were in the crate with a blanket draped over the top, but the crate door was open most of the time.

Exactly.

Mine (two 12-week rescues) went straight from rescue to my bed and we never looked back. Forcing them to sit in a cage wasn't something that interested me.