Older dog - excessive drinking and advice on puppy pads

[LaLaFlottes]

Our lovely little terrier is 13 and drinks excessively. She’s done this for a while, but recently it’s resulted in lots of needing a wee in the night, and a couple of accidents.

I must stress, I don’t mind getting up with her, she goes right back to sleep and I’m happy to make sure she’s comfortable, but obviously it’s not ideal!

She’s had a lot of tests, ruled out diabetes, Cushings, had her calcium levels checked and also a liver scan as her liver enzymes are high.

The outcome of the scan was that she has some polyps on her gallbladder and sludge in her gallbladder. She has tablets for this and liver supplements plus some pain relief as apparently the gallbladder can cause discomfort.

I worry sometimes that I won’t hear her in the night as she doesn’t bark, she just kind of wriggles and whines a little bit. She sleeps upstairs so that we do hear her.

There’s been the occasional time she’s been sat at the back door, pretty desperate for a wee. She definitely tried not to have an accident. I was thinking of getting some puppy pads just in case, and I could put one at the back door in the night and also when we go out - if she has an accident she seems to go for the doormat or a rug! Are the pads that are scented better? Or a washable one? We’ve only had her since she was 6 so I don’t know if she’s ever used pads!

Also any ideas to help? I tried to take her for a walk at 9pm tonight so that she could do a few wees but she was just so tired she just kept turning for home! She did one wee though and she will go out in the garden just before bed.

I’m not sure if it’s become a habit or if she really does struggle to get through the night. She sometimes gets up and goes for a drink first, wee second!

Not really sure what I’m asking! Just any tips to help. She has another scan mid August to see if her gallbladder has improved.

Thanks!

We have a similar case in our house with a rescue who is about 15. We are also stumped! Same as you- lots of tests and no real answer. She’s obviously not incontinent because she knows she needs to go! Are you sure she’s drinking excessively? If she is thirsty it could be thyroid? We are currently trying out medication for that but tbh it’s no different- I think he just can’t hold it long at his age! Ours isn’t incontinent either as he gets up to pee so knows it’s coming, and definitely drinks a lot as he has very diluted urine. That’s what made the vet think it could be thyroid. He also has some hair loss which possibly was related but hard to say as he’s new to us and had no fur but had been badly treated so I could’ve been stress. Is she eating wet food? If not maybe try that if she is thirsty as obviously with dry food they have to drink more fluid. You could try putting a pad by the back door - it’s not a problem if she wees there & will save your floor! X

just to add maybe over time she will learn to go on the pad but I’d just place them strategically to save your floor! They work well, we’ve used them lots previously with old dogs who struggled to get outside, as long as they have a tendency to wee in the same place!

Thank you so much for your reply @babyproblems and sorry to hear you are in the same boat!

Thyroid doesn’t seem to have come up, so I will mention that to the vet next time. She initially had blood tests which ruled out diabetes but showed these very high liver enzymes which indicated Cushings but then further tests said no! I feel like we still don’t know why her liver enzymes are high or why she’s drinking loads! The things she’s being treated for now seem to be random things we’ve found along the way!

She’s definitely drinking excessively - I fill her bowl from a measuring jug now to keep track of how much she’s having and if I let her just drink and drink, it’s easily 3 x 750ml a day.

I think she enjoys drinking too! If I fill her bowl she drinks almost all of it. But if I half fill it, she drinks that and is satisfied. She bangs her bowl if she wants more 😂 so we are managing her consumption a little, but she always has water.

I know what you mean about them not being incontinent - ours is the same but it’s just like she can’t hold the volume for the same length of time. Although we had 3 nights in a row last week when she managed and I thought we had broken a cycle but now we’re back to the same. Last night though, she got up at 4.30am and I took her downstairs, and she went for a drink before a wee! So she wasn’t bursting!

Her wee is very dilute too - no hair loss though. She does have wet food with a few bits of kibble as treats!

Thanks for your note about the pads. I think I will get some and hope she realises what they are for! The doormat has been the location of choice when she’s been caught short so I’ll put one at each door maybe!

I hope you get some answers soon too. How long has your dog been with you? That’s sad she was badly treated before, but lovely she’s with you now. 15 is a great age! Old dogs are just lovely - so sweet, but I really wish they could talk!

yes that’s a lot of water!! Is there anything else that could be bothering her - teeth issues? Does she seem very hot? Sometimes I think when they get old they do go a bit senile and tend to form repetitive habits- if you give a better distraction like a kong with treats in would she still immediately drink a full bowl??
good that she’s going in the same place!!

is it possible she has cystitus?? That is also something I’ve seen repeatedly in old dogs and is really sore for them but you won’t see any symptoms other than v frequent peeing!! I’d actually say that would be my first port of call but not sure If your vet has checked that? Have you been able to take a urine sample to the vet? You can syringe some up and put it in a zip lock bag - they dip a test strip in it to check cystitis.

our latest addition is still very new to us, only about 6 weeks so we are still trying to just settle in really. I am also stuck with the conundrum of - ok so he’s not incontinent- but how to teach a blind dog where the garden is??! I think part of our problem is a) v frequent urination and b) he’s been peeing and living in the same place for months where he’s been at the pound/rescue centre. So I’m having to put him out v v regularly but it would be amazing if he could finally just start going out!!

Is she on any medication some can have weird side effect of excessive thirst?

My old dog had kidney disease which means they need the extra fluids to flush and can't concentrate it down as well, so would often leak while asleep or not be able to hold the volume to make it out first thing. Can recommend these washable pads as they can take lot more liquid than puppy pads and easy to wash/dry.

Hi OP my terrier had Cushings, but his was typical. There's another type that doesn't show up on a standard Cushings test called A-Typical Cushings which is rare but has the same symptoms of excessive thirst and frequent urination (what goes in must come out!). You might have to push for the A-Typical test. There are some useful Cushings groups on Facebook.

If there are no other explanations to the symptoms please push the vets for the A-Typical test, Cushings can be well controlled with a tablet and once we had got the dose right we got our dog "back" so to speak, his playfulness, whilst it never really went, returned fully. He used to do this weird quivering thing too where either his legs would quiver/shake or when he was relaxed his whole body would do it. The vet initially put it down to terriers being highly strung and in hindsight it was an earlier sign of the Cushings, but he was only tested when the urination began. Both the quiver and the excessive drinking/urination went when the vetoryl dose was right for him.

What breed of terrier do you have? I hope they're not too distressed with it all!

@LaLaFlottes @babyproblems my terrier didn't have hair loss with Cushings although it's a common symptom, though his skin on his legs/underside/tummy did go almost black which went once his meds were right. The more I read what you've put OP the more I think Cushings, especially the liver enzymes, mine was the same. Absolutely ask and push for for that A-Typical test, it will completely rule it out if nothing else but if it is it's so easily managed.

We lost him last year at 13, not to Cushings, that was fine and well managed, and he was his usual clown self albeit in shorter spells but we think he had developed cancer as amongst a few other bits, he lost a third of his body weight in around 6 weeks. We didn't investigate as he was old, arthritic, a bit deaf and we wouldn't have treated him for it. He had a good life and lived off pork pies (butchers only though, no cheap supermarket crap, wouldn't eat those), Lily's kitchen treats and Pom Bears as in the last three weeks it was all we could get him to eat!

Remember they can hide their pain....

Good you are having her checked by the vet- I hope they do find something to help.

In Europe and America it is really common to have litter trays for dogs inside. I have done it with an elderly dog after an operation.

You could use puppy pads, or you can use soil or grass that is replaced over time. Some people have rotating trays of grass that can be put outside and the rain clear them and then swop with the one inside. You can get ready made ones that have drainage and are easy to clean.

Position it carefully so not too close to your dogs bed or eating area.

Same boat here but no solutions for you OP. Our girl us 13 and had a recent stroke, I do agree what a PP said above that her drinking is a habit but she's been up every night around 3am give or take a half hour. She also can't be bothered with a stroll later on. Because she's on steroids she's totally obsessed with food at the moment, I'm trying to discourage her getting treats in between her meals as this also increases her drinking. I called her an old pest this morning at 2.15 and felt so bad afterwards, bless them our old crispy crumbles.

To echo what previous posters have said. Cushing is difficult to diagnose. My dog had exactly same symptoms including gallbladder sludge. Push your vet for further tests or even a trial of vetoryl to see if she improves.

We lost mine at 13 but not to Cushing. Once on the right dose tablet it can be well controlled.

@babyproblems oh bless, blind as well. Thank goodness he has a nice new home now rather than a shelter. That must be challenging though. I hope he finds his stride soon and gets into a routine of going out to the garden when he feels the urge to wee.

I did take in a urine sample, this was the next step after the blood test which showed the high liver enzymes and it was after this that cushings was ruled out as no cortisol in her urine - I think that's what they said, I get mixed up which what I've read on line, but certainly the urine sample was sent away for that test. But that makes me think they maybe didn't test for cystitis so I will ask about that too.

@ScattyHattie thank you for the link. I hadn't thought about pads like that. I will order some as they look great. I will also ask if kidney disease has been thought about.

@PieonaBarm thank you - I didn't realise there was another type of cushings. I will ask about this too. Cushings seemed to be taken off the table as soon as her urine was tested and came back negative for cortisol or whatever they were looking for. It was as if that was conclusive. Before the urine test, the vet seemed pretty sure it would be cushings. From what they said, her liver enzymes were not just high, but off the chart high. Pork pies, pom bears and lily's treats sound good bless him. Thank you for the info.

@WoofWoofBeachLife ah it's tough isn't it when they get us up night after night. She goes back to sleep instantly and I'm awake for ages! It's hard isn't it. I thought I'd take her for an extra walk last night as she loves sniffing and weeing and I thought that could be the answer, but she was like "what the heck? not now thanks!".

@walkingwoods that's really interesting. I wonder if they would us try vetoryl, even a small dose just to see. I'm now really wondering if they've ruled it out too fast based on one urine test, or if that really was conclusive.

So an update from last night.....

I was quite determined to try and break the habit, if it is a habit! So I had tried to keep her water consumption under control yesterday. She did also have a tiny walk, which she wasn't up for, but she did one wee more than she would have done without it!

She was sleeping soundly but did wake at 4am doing her normal wriggling and huffing and puffing a bit. As I got up, you could almost sense her smile and think ah great, off we go downstairs, but instead, I lifted her on to our bed, where she sat for a minute or two, and then she lay down and went back to sleep until 5.30am when my husband got up for work.

At 5.30am it was clear she really did want to go downstairs so off we went, me assuming by this time that she was bursting for a wee. But we got to the bottom of the stairs and she tottered off to the kitchen for a drink! She had a long drink and then strolled slowly (no urgency) to the back door for a wee. So now I'm thinking is she waking in the night for a drink predominantly, and a wee is just because she's there - or the other way around!!

I guess it doesn't matter either way, as I need to keep pushing the vet to get to the bottom of it, but I thought this was quite interesting!

Ironically I woke up at 2.30am regretting that last cup of tea and needing to go to the loo. I lay for ages hoping I'd go back to sleep as I didn't want to wake her! In the end I crept out of bed and managed to go without her getting up. It did make me laugh though - seems I can't make it through the night either!!!

@IngGenius thank you - that's interesting that they are common in other locations. I am definitely going to buy a couple and position them carefully!

@LaLaFlottes
I assumed they would have already checked all organ functions with initial bloods.
Glad she had a better night! It's so much easier & quicker to just prepare for accidents or do extra toilet trip than deal with the clean up.

If you end up feeling the vets are struggling to diagnose you can always request a referral to a specialist for a consult and any further investigations as while more expensive than first opinion vets sometimes it works out more cost effective in the long run.

@ScattyHattie they did seem to check a lot on those initial bloods, as it was simply me saying she was drinking a lot, but no other symptoms. However I feel a bit in the dark about what's been check and what hasn't so I will definitely speak with them again.

They are a good vet surgery, always good at calling to chat so I think I can have a decent conversation with them. Her next scan is in 2 weeks too.

That's a good idea about a specialist though. Other than the drinking and subsequent weeing, she's in good spirits.

The only other thing that happens now and again is that she drinks a lot, and she's quite gulpy, and then if she does something that's a bit of effort, like jumping up the step from the garden for example, she brings the water back up. I think it's the volume of water, and then the exertion, but it's another thing I'll mention to the vet.

Going to try and extra walk again this evening but a little earlier than last night!

Thank you for your support.

We bought these ones too about 4 years ago when our lab was weeing at the back door. He never actually used them in the end as the problem (can't remember what it was now!) resolved itself before they arrived a couple of days later. Still have them in a cupboard upstairs, but they look good, are a good size and have a bit of weight in them so they wont get moved around like a puppy pad would.

We had a girl with cushings who was diagnosed at 14 and lived quite well until 17.

Dog nappies. Total gamechanger. She has no idea she was weeing and as we WFH we could easily change her several times a day.

Vetoryl is what ours was on. It's very expensive though. But helped out of sight at first

Have they done a fructosamine test? They can test blood for sugars and it be normal at the time but the fructosamine shows long term control.

I have a 13 yo terrier who is diabetic and the drinking was the first sign. He got diagnosed because they did the fructosamine when he had a pancreatis episode.

They are definitely checking the ionising calcium at the blood test? My usual vet can check calcium levels in blood, but apparently the test for ionising calcium is different (and I had to go to North Downs Specialist Referrals for it). It was that test that diagnosed a parathyroid problem (which had the same symptoms you're describing) and surgery was needed.
Little Dog (terrier cross, age 12) has a slow growing thyroid cancer but is back to herself after the surgery 🤞

We had a dog years ago that had diabetes insipidus and he drank and drank and drank and then weed loads. He did have treatment and was ok.

@LaLaFlottes Cushings is diagnosed from fasting blood tests not urine, if that's not been done it needs doing!

@PieonaBarm thank you - so testing her urine and finding it had no cortisol wouldn’t rule it out? We’ve definitely not done a fasting blood test…

@trulyunruly01 I will check this too! I know in the initial blood test her calcium was a little high, then she had a second one specifically to check calcium
levels and they were in the normal range. But they didn’t say ionising calcium.

@IngGenius they did say it wasn’t diabetes after blood tests but I’ll check again!

We’ve had a 7pm walk with lots of wees and she’s not drunk as much today so let’s see what tonight brings!