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4 replies

silverback · 17/07/2023 11:18

This is a long story, but one worth telling I think.

We've been looking for a puppy for quite some time, done loads of research, and before going to see any we do as much internet snooping about the dogs/breeder as possible.

Anyway, we found a puppy listed on the Kennel Club from a breeder who appeared to not only be completely legit but one who genuinely cares about the dogs and pups too.

Now this little story isn't going to end with me uncovering an undercover puppy farm, the likes of which have never seen before, but it is going to end with us walking away after unearthing a web of lies.

Back to the story.....

So, looking on KC's website we found two listings that appealed to us. One had two available pups (a boy and girl) from one litter, and the other listing had one available girl pup from another litter. This already had my inner Sherlock twitching because I noticed that both litters were from the same breeder. I wasn't sure why, or even if this was a red flag, and couldn't come up with a reason why I should walk away, so I looked past it.

Next step was to phone the breeder. Had a nice long call, chatting about the litters and pups, what the breeder does and has done in the past, etc etc. Everything sounding positive. Turns out the two litters (three pups in each) with available pups are related. Both litters are from bitches she owns at home. One litter (with the girl pup in it) is from her oldest bitch, and the second litter (with the boy and girl pups) is from the daughter of this oldest bitch. So basically one litter are the aunts/uncles of the second litter (a piece of information that I had to point out to the breeder later as she didn't realise!?)

I arranged a visit, and the next day drove 80 miles to see the three available pups.

I arrived at the breeder's home, everything checking out nicely. The available puppies + the already reserved siblings all there, both mums there (no dads, as usual), a few other family dogs present too... all of the same breed. Spent a long time chatting, playing/handling the puppies, watching the mums with the puppies. This was looking good. The only thing left to decide was which puppy to go for. I narrowed it down to being a choice between one of the two girl pups, but couldn't decide on which one as they were different in look and character. Said to the breeder I'd get back to her the following day once I've thought everything through, we said our goodbyes and I left.

I really struggled to decide between two girl pups, and after a day of thinking, looking at photos and videos on the breeder's Facebook page, I asked if I could come back to see the pups again, this time with my partner and daughter, so we could really focus on the two we're interested in and make a decision. The breeder happily agreed and we did the 160 mile round trip again a couple of days later.

We arrived at the breeder's home and like last time, all dogs there, nice chit chat, a nice play session with the two pups we liked. This time the breeder's husband was also present. A nice guy who also seemed passionate about the dogs. They asked us if we wanted to see the mums with the pups again so we said yes. Out come the mums, nibbling and play fighting with the pups. The pups giving back as good as they get. All good there.

It was obvious we were still struggling to decide between the two girls so the next suggestion from the breeder.... "shall I bring the dad of one of the girls out?". This surprised me a bit because as far as I was aware the dads were studs/friend's dogs, and there was no mention of any of the dads belonging to the breeder when we chatted about the parents in my first visit. But anyway, a lot was going on with dogs everywhere so I parked that thought.

They introduced us to the dad, explaining he's their dog that they've owned for all of his 5/6 years, he's an ex-show dog, showed us a photo, etc etc. Again, this was surprising me because as far as I was aware both pups/litters came from studs, and certainly this dad was never mentioned until now. Also, just before they brought the dad out the breeder said to me "oh by the way, when I said last time that the dad wasn't here, I didn't mean we don't have him at all". The husband overheard this and chipped in saying "yeah, he's been at our mother in law's so he's not around some in season bitches we have", and then went on to say "you'll notice that he stays away from the pups as he's not at all bothered about interacting with them".

So now here's a dad of one of the litters, that is all of a sudden the breeder's family dog, but doesn't show any interest in his kids. Hmmmmm.... But in the moment, in the centre of a whirlwind of dogs and puppies, this didn't stand out as suspicious and I questioned my memory about what I'd been told in the past by the breeder.

So.. more playing, more chatting. I then asked the breeder to see the KC paperwork and health tests of the parents and puppies, which she previously said she had. She replied that she'd WhatsApp them to me later. Again, suspicious in hindsight, but in the moment I was like ok.

Time to leave and go home, we'd seen what we need to see with the pups. Told the breeder we'd have a final think and get back to her the following morning. We all said our goodbyes left.

Arrived back home a couple of hours later and now all parts of the visit and things that were said started form a larger, not quite right, picture.

What initially raised my suspicions was the father of one of the litters that was all of a sudden introduced to us. This dog they were claiming to be the dad was a red/tan colour and 6 years old. Apparently a 2018 crufts top 3 finishing dog. Looking on the KC website again.... this litter's dad should actually be a 2 year old black dog.

It's crazy, when you discover something that doesn't make sense your first reaction can be to question everything you know, and in my mind I replayed the conversation with the breeder and was questioning my recollection of the things they said when introducing "the dad" to us. I asked my partner and daughter who they understood the male dog to be. Both said, without any leading (excuse the pun) from me, it's the dad.

In the meantime, my partner is frantically looking through all photos and comments on the breeder's facebook page, and she starts to unearth some interesting information. There's a photo of the pup posted on her page the day before our visit, and in the comments someone says "my dog is the dad", and the breeder replies agreeing. With further searching we see more references to the dad being her friend's dog. With some deeper searching we managed to find out that this friend's dog is the dog the KC has as the pup's dad.

So there it is...... the breeder says to us the dad is one dog (her dog), KC have it as being another dog, and on facebook the breeder and her friend also say it's the KC dog that is the dad.

So now I want to play the breeder's game, or at least see if there is a logical explanation, and see where it all leads (pun again)..... So I sent her a message, asking for the KC paperwork/health tests that she said she'd send to me.

Message opened, but no reply for an hour. Very unusual for her, usually she replies straight away.

An hour passes and then I receive her reply, but not with photos of the paperwork and test results. Instead she ignores my request and tells me that there is now someone interested in one of the pups (note, she doesn't mention which pup) and it's a person who was going to take one of them before but couldn't for a "sad" reason. She then goes on to ask if I've made up my mind about which dog we want.

I continue to go along with things.....

I reply telling her which pup we have decided on (the one from the litter with the dad confusion).

The breeder replies... that is the pup this other person is interested in, and are we sure that's the one we want.

I say, yes but obviously we need to see the paperwork and health tests of both parents and pup.

Breeder says, ok I'll need to find it all.

Now bare in mind, from my initial message requesting the paperwork it has taken over two hours to get to the point of her agreeing to "find it".

A few minutes later she sends me a screenshot of the pup's mum's KC profile page, followed by a screenshot of the health certificate of the pup's nan (the pup's mum's mum). Other than the results, the certificate only shows the pet name of the nan, not the KC name, so impossible to tie it back to the dog. All pointless anyway, she's a breeder, she knows what she should be sending.... paperwork relating to the pup and pup's parents, not the health cert of just one of the grandparents and a screenshot of a KC page that anyone can view themselves.

Breeder goes on to say that she's just searching for the dad's paperwork. 20 mins later she sends me another screenshot. It's another test certificate, but this time.... wait for it......... it's conveniently cropped so all that can be seen are the test results, with no details about the dog or anything else.

I reply asking to see the whole certificate without it being cropped and showing details that link it to the dad. I turn up the heat by saying she doesn't need to send me the KC page because I will check that out myself.

The breeder says she'll look for the full test certificate, but cropped it in the past because it shows his stud number and people can use it against her will.

Another 20 mins passes and another message comes through. It's not the full certificate.... it's the breeder telling me that she can't remember if she'd mentioned it to me before but the pup I've chosen will be endorsed so can't
be used for breeding.

I simply reply it's not a problem.

More time passes and the breeder says she is waiting for the stud's test certificate and will send it to me when she receives it. Weird..... stud??? According to her the dad is her dog, not a stud. She then goes on to say.... she's just realised she was wrong earlier, the pup's dad is not her dog, it's another dog and that she can send me photos of him. She throws in that she's turned away the other person that was all of a sudden interested in the pup too.
She then sends me a photo of the "correct" dad and his test certificate.

I had heard enough. The chances of me taking the pup ended hours ago, as soon as this all started, but I wanted to see it through and hear what the breeder had to say, just on the tiny chance that I was seeing things wrong.

I replied to the breeder, laying out exactly what I thought...... Told her its impossible to believe that both her and her husband all of a sudden at the same time on the same day mistakenly thought that their dog was the dad of the pup, but knew the dad was a different dog the day before on facebook. Also mentioned the dodgy back stories about why the dad wasn't at the first visit and why it doesn't show any interest in the litter. Went to mention the cropped test certificate, and test cert only for the nan not the mum. Finished off by saying no way would I take a puppy from them and no need for them to reply. Closed message and blocked them.

They probably don't give a damn that they've been busted, but I wanted to show them that they had been. Small chance they've got a conscience and reconsider what they do and how they do things, but doubt it.

I could go further and post all of this on their facebook page, with screenshots of conversation etc, but nah, that's not my style.

Why was this breeder trying to pass off a different dog as the pup's dad, I'll never know. Could it be because the pup was quite a bit smaller than the rest because it inherited something from the real dad.... could it be a sales tactic to make the pup seems more appealing by introducing us to "the dad" and showing us crufts photos of him. Who knows.

Buying a puppy is a real minefield. I've always thought about the puppy vs rescue argument and can see why people prefer to get a rescue dog. We went puppy because the breed we want rarely comes up in rescue and we like the idea of raising a dog from very young.

Sorry for the mega post, and I'm sure many are aware of the dodgy tactics of many "breeders", but I just wanted to tell my story and reiterate why no matter how good/genuine things look there might be something lurking in the "service history" of the puppy you have already fallen in love with or are close to falling in love with.

Never buy there and then, always go home, park your emotions at your front door and head straight to the internet to research things to the death, using every bit of information the web has to offer.

Caveat emptor.

OP posts:
OpalescentFly · 17/07/2023 11:46

Before we got our last pup we were on the waiting list for a female pup from a planned litter. We'd checked out all the health tests, pedigree etc. all looked good.

Once the litter was born the breeder contacted me to say that there weren't females for everyone on the wait list - fair enough - would we be interested in a male pup instead - no, but still a reasonable question to ask.

Where it gets interesting is I see the 2 male pups available on champ dogs and she's actually used a totally different stud dog to the one we went on the waiting list for. Now I'm sure there are perfectly good reasons for that, but surely as soon as they are using another stud dog they should contact everyone on their waiting list to ask if they're still interested??

I had been sceptical about using a licensed breeder (our first pup came from people who have a litter once every 4 years or so to continue their own lines) and this just cemented that opinion further.

Isheabastard · 17/07/2023 12:03

Well your story is exactly why people should do their research and visit breeders in person. You picked up that something was off. I also don’t get why they were passing off one dog as the dad, I’m not sure what advantage they were trying to achieve. But if you catch someone out in an untruth, it does make everything else they say untrustworthy.

My Dd bought her dog through a home breeder, visits etc. This owner was passionate about her dogs and puppy and my Dd had no hesitation from buying a puppy from her.

Many years ago I took a friend with me to look at pedigree Labrador puppies. We saw the puppies and mum together and asked about eye and hip scores. I also asked to see the KC papers. The breeder was selling the puppies at the going rate at that time.

The breeder said she didn’t agree with giving her dogs these tests. My friend suggested we ring someone she knew and we went to my car. We couldn’t get hold of her, but decided not to buy the puppy.

I went back to the house alone (I’d left a bag inside), and before I could say anything, she said “I think you’d better leave”

I was dumbfounded, she acted like I had done the wrong thing and she was personally insulted by what I’d said!

However, there are still people who get fooled and are happy to meet someone in a car park and handover money for a puppy.

silverback · 17/07/2023 14:38

Yes, I'm still trying to work out the reason for trying to pass off their dog as the dad. Maybe they see it as a "better" dog than the real dad, or that the real dad has recently experienced some health problems.

I was almost offended they thought I wouldn't pick up on the inconsistencies in their story, or that I'd accept a cut out picture of some random test results.

Maybe it just within this breed, but what I have noticed is that it's a very small world when dealing with a single breed. The breeders seem to know each other, and most puppies seem to be related in some way to others. I've looked into a good number of litters so far, from the south coast to the midlands, and they're all related within a few generations.

Wondering if this is the downside of relying on the Kennel Club for puppies. It's supposed to help you find responsibly and well bred dogs, but in actual fact it restricts the number of dogs available for breeding etc. And then everyone is so concerned about keeping their KC lines going that the small number of dogs within a breed that are KC registered are literally all in bed with each other to keep the KC title going. For the breeders it becomes more about the title (and therefore the price tag) than the puppies.

OP posts:
EdithStourton · 17/07/2023 18:27

Our older dog came from shock horror Pets4Homes.
First things first, COI was low. That ticked a big box.
Spoke to the breeder on the phone and visited twice. Everything beautifully clean. Puppies able to frolic around the ground floor of the house and into the garden. Paperwork checked out.
Breeder very keen to find out what sort of life we planned to provide.
Crawled all over breeder's personal FB page. Everything checked out. Evidence of the stud (owned by a friend of the breeder) still working at about age 11, so good strong healthy lines that side. Also found article about the stud in a shooting magazine.
Saw videos of the dam working.
Everything felt right.

She's been a great dog. I'd have her clone again in an instant.

But yep, caveat emptor. You can find terrible breeders on the KC website of ChampDogs and good ones on P4H.

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