Too old for dental?

[honeyandbutterontoast]

DDog is 12. She’s a breed with 11-12 year life expectancy. In fairly good health but does have early stage heart failure (unmedicated at moment). Has however put on half kg in 3 weeks (no change to diet), vet seems unconcerned. She also has several large growths on her side (internal), again vet says not an issue, just age.

Took her to vets a month ago with a cough. Vet said it was due to an infected tooth. Said needed a dental but risky because of her age and heart condition. Put her on antibiotics. Said my call to decide but needed to be aware of risks.

Week ago still coughing but it’s now a wheeze. Back to vets (different vet, same practice), who said she is coughing because she has a sore throat and teeth are worse. Very much pushing the dental and telling me her age doesn’t matter. Back on antibiotics and anti inflammatory too.

Has anyone here had a dental on their dog at this age? Do the benefits outweigh the risks? It’s not just the cost putting me off but a sneaky feeling that the cough isn’t a sore throat (she wheezes after exercise, eating, or when trying to sleep) and something more serious that means she isn’t well enough for an op.

Is it fair to leave her with sore teeth though ? She s going to die of something one day, and I think it’s wrong to keep her like this, eventually she will stop eating and then the question is whether it’s due to the teeth or old age.
Id have it done knowing the possible consequences. Anaesthetics are very good these days.

I honestly wouldn’t have know she had sore teeth unless they had told me. She eats everything and anything. Crunches on carrots etc.

I’m not in any way making her suffer, just not sure with a cough and ESHF she is well enough. Plus the weird weight gain and growths.

I don't really think you have a choice if medication isn't working.

You can't leave your dog in pain indefinitely.

I think you need to get it done. My previous dog had a major operation at the same age and lived four more years. Poor teeth affect hearts in dogs as well as humans so check they will give IV antibiotics to counter any bacteria that get into the bloodstream during the procedure.

I'd honestly suggest finding a new vet!

Dogs with heart Failure develop a cough, your dog might have a dodgy tooth but I'd put my money on the heart being the problem. I've had a dog with heart failure and it's awful.

Has she has an ultrasound on her heart? She probably needs to be on Vetmedin for her heart and if she's putting on weight and she and coughing a lot then she might even need a diuretic to get rid of the fluid.

The heart will be enlarged pressing on her trachea which irritates it and makes her cough the rattling cough will be fluid in her lungs from her poor heart struggling to pump. They also bloat up from taking on too much air from trying to breathe.

The warm weather we are currently having will be making it worse, I had my girl pts last summer because the hot humid day were very hard on her and I couldn't bare to see her suffer. She was on low dose Vetmedin for 2 years and was absolutely fine but the last 6 months she needed 3 lots of medication.

So sorry you are going through this

Absolutely this, my dog has just died of heart failure, successfully medicated for 18 months until all the drugs stopped working, it really sounds as though your dog needs a heart scan and then medication to relieve the fluid on their lungs. See another vet asap.

So sorry for your loss @LadyVictoriaSponge

My vet always said they are fine until they are not and it's so true.

95% of the time you wouldn't know there was anything wrong with my dog, she was 12 and still acted like a puppy but then, the last 6 months she'd be absolutely fine and then out of the blue she'd wake me up panting at 4am because it was too hot and she was struggling to breathe ☹️ I'd give her another diuretic to get rid of any fluid and we'd sleep downstairs together where it was cooler. The warmer the weather got the more frequent it happened and it was unbearable to see her like that. Even though it was only in short bursts and she'd be fine by morning those nights were horrific for us both.

If she has mitral valve disease causing her heart problems there is a significant risk of bacteria from the teeth entering the blood stream and attaching to the damaged heart valve causing endocarditis which will make her heart problems worse.
There are risks and benefits, but digs with dental pain continue to eat and seem normal, but the most common thing I hear after a dental is they are better than they have been in weeks/months.
If the heart disease is well controlled on medication the risk is minimal.

My dog had a dental while she had heart failure because obviously dental problems can make the heart worse.

The difference is my dog was on medication and doing fine at that point so I felt it was worth the risk. The OPs dog isn't on ANY heart medication at the moment and it seems as though the heart is what's causing the coughing/breathing problems. I'd want that sorted first if possible, no way would I have had my dog put under anaesthetic in the OPs circumstances.

I find it alarming that the vet doesn't seem to be thinking that it's the heart that's causing the coughing/wheezing. As soon as my dog was diagnosed with her bad heart my vet told me to alert them if she started coughing.

Thank you @BeansOnToast32 it is still very raw as it was only 4 weeks ago, I’m still devastated and I’m very sorry for your loss too . Your situation sounds very similar to mine, at her initial diagnosis they gave her approximately 12 months but she did so well on the medication and she lived for 18 months, only a month before she died at her monthly check up the vet was amazed at how well she was doing, I really thought we would have another summer together, but like you say, dogs are well until they are not and she was literally fine one minute and then dying the next, it was utterly heartbreaking seeing her so poorly and struggling to breath.

Breathe that should say.

Yes my worry is that her heart is the issue but I’m totally aware that infected teeth could cause it to be worse.

The first vet suggested instead of a dental we could cycle antibiotics (one week a month) to keep the infection under control, as she thought it was too risky. Second vet said no had to be a dental.

She is still coughing. Despite antibiotics and anti inflammatories, I’m thinking possibly some kind of allergy, an asthma type of thing. Or her heart. I can’t find anything online to say a bad tooth causes a cough.

I am absolutely not leaving her in pain. Think a second opinion may be the best idea for now.

Coughing when trying to lay down or coughing after laying down is typical when a dog has a bad heart!

Have you tried counting her breaths when relaxed and sleeping? My vet said it had to be under 30 breaths a minute when relaxed for my small breed. Set a timer for 30 seconds, count her breaths and double it. You will know then if she's struggling. I always counted breaths when my dog seemed unwell.

I am sorry to say this but it has been my experience that vets are quick to suggest a dental rather that investigating what is really wrong.
Mine was given a dental when she was quite old. I'm sure she didn't need it and the vet was just fobbing me off.
What she did need as it turned out was heart medication and diuretics but she got those far too late.

It was beyond awful at the end.

I have told this one she is going early rather than late. I'd prefer the guilt of perhaps cutting her life a little short than leaving it too late.

I hope you get some answers when you go for your second opinion.

I did the counting breath thing last Friday evening when I was debating taking her to the emergency vet as she had wheezed for an hour. Her breaths were 28-30 a minute and gums were still pink. I made her lay down somewhere cooler and she went off to sleep. I did video the wheezing though because she was kind of huffing on her exhale. The vet didn’t want to see the video though 🤷‍♀️

My dog is a very fit healthy 11 no underlying health concerns average life expectancy for the breed is 14-15 he’s just had his teeth done. My vet very rural practice mainly farmers (if that makes any difference but does seem very reluctant to run you up a big bill or play heroics) advised me to do it now and hope that it would last him out. She said she’d be reluctant to anaesthetise a 14/15 year old dog because it was much more risky.

If it were dental, surely she’d be eating less or slower? Would she not be needing an X-Ray first to investigate?

You should never rush to put a senior dog under anesthetic, especially if she has a heart condition. It would be so high risk and any decent vet would be against it.

I think you should ask around for recommendations and look for recommendations for a new vet ASAP. It took me a while to find someone I thought was right for my senior.

Update…
she is still coughing despite the antibiotics and anti inflammatories. I’ve had a recommendation for a new vet so we are going there next week.
If they also think it’s teeth that are the cause then I will get the op done ASAP. But I have my doubts.
Apart from the cough she’s full of beans and happy to eat anything she’s offered at the usual speedy pace 😂

Exactly rhe same here. My ddog is now 12, had his teeth cleaned last year and vet said not again. His front teeth are black and wobbly but vet says they don't feel pain from them like we do and he certainly doesn't seem bothered- just has tins or soaked biscuits and his breath is shocking but I've learned to love it 🤮