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Another wil a border collie suit us question

31 replies

Sunrisemouse · 14/05/2023 11:00

Hi,

We are thinking of getting a border collie at some point over the next 12-18 months.

My daughter has quite bad social anxiety and is selectively mute in most social situations. We are on the pathway to see if autism is involved. She doesn’t have meltdowns or anything like that. When her worries get too much, she just goes to her bedroom to hide for a while. She gains a lot of confidence around dogs and found in her counselling she could talk to the counsellor if the dog was there. That dog was a Border Collie and she fell in love with her. My daughter also wants to train the dog and eventually do agility with it (I would prefer hoopers as that’s what I do with our current dog). She also wants to join Young Crufts and get involved with that, which I think will help her massively. We have found that once she is determined to do something she loves she will do it regardless of how she feels socially, she just won’t talk a great deal.

We have a crazy 2yr old Springador who is quite smart and very active. She gets a 20min sniffy walk in the morning and a 1-1.25-hour walk at lunch, much of this is off lead. I also do hoopers with her once a week. We hope to start competing when she is ready, hopefully towards the end of the year. I also break mid-morning and mid-afternoon with small training sessions. We do lots of enrichment – find it in the garden, long-lasting chews, lick mats, frozen kongs, etc. Our dog is now very good at chilling between these things. To be honest the only thing that really tires her is a full-on one-to-one hoopers session.

Both my husband and I WFH full-time in flexible roles which allow us to take time out in the day when needed. This will not be changing any time soon as we both love our jobs and the flexibility it provides.

The reason our current dog isn’t suitable is that she is bonded to me, I guess because I do the sport and training with her. Her parents were both working gun dogs and she does have a very high work drive and is not people-focused just me-focused. She was a bit nervous about other dogs, traffic, and people when a pup but we worked with our trainer to overcome this. My daughter will be doing all the training classes, and as much of the daily care and play as she can with this dog.

Our trainer also has experience with training collies and has had several rescue collies so we feel she would be a big initial help initially if we run into problems.

If on the unlikely (in my opinion) chance that my daughter loses interest then I would obviously carry on with them and will definitely do hoopers as this is something I enjoy.

We have spoken to a few show-type breeders and have two in mind. One has said they plan on breeding from two bitches next year but would only consider us for one of the litters as the other usually has litters who excel at Agility and that would probably be too much for us to handle as a first-time Collie owner. The other bitch has had litters of a lower drive and some of those have gone on to be pets as therapy dogs. I feel quite positive about this breeder as she has said this. The other seems to feel our situation will work well with her dogs, none have really gone down the agility route and most appear to be homed to families.

Are we crazy to do this?

OP posts:
IngGenius · 14/05/2023 11:12

It depends so much on the collie.I have 6 at the moment.

1 of mine would be ideal, calm loves to nuzzle in for cuddles once bonded with someone he never forgets them. Really gentle with my elderly mum who had dementia and walked slower to be in pace with her etc really empathic to the humans mood. Would work for anyone anytime and anyplace. Happy chilled dog not fazed by anything - pretty rare for a collie!

However the other ones would not be so great. They are all about them and want to be working a lot. A coupe are also very sensitive themselves so loud noises bangs whistles etc just traumatise them and they need to be treated with care and patience.

It is pretty common to have to work on traffic with collies as they will lunge and herd the moving cars also some can be quite reactive and not want to be near other dogs. Some are not really friendly to other dogs so can actually be a quite isolating dog as you may find they are happier avoiding dog encounters.

You must have seen in agility people have a large number of collies but only a few actually complete due to age injuries or temperament.

Most collies hate raised voices and a lively loud house can be stressful for them.

It would not be my first choice of dog for a beginner or an autistic support dog. If your daughter is happy to support the dog as much as it supports her it may work but your daughter may find herself in a caring role rather than supporting. She may have to change her expectations depending on the collie she gets. It is not a given they will be easy to train and do agility.

Collies do need a lot of time given to them, some good exercise (although not excessive) but also the same time again spent on training and just doing things!

However on the other hand if I ship my boy over to you - it would be a great combination

AliceinSlumberland · 14/05/2023 11:17

I have a show bred collie and she would be perfect in your circumstances so I’d really recommend going down the shoe lines route. Many criticise the show breeders but I do think it just takes the edge off slightly and my collie is literally the perfect dog, super friendly, she’s a therapy dog and goes to local hospitals and ambulance bases, she does agility and is reasonably competitive, and just all round a great pet. Shes also done some scentwork which was good fun. She’s certainly not as bright as some collies but I think that’s what takes that edge off her. She’s very much from shoe lines - her litter brother was Best dog of breed at crufts and almost made it into the main ring! She’s walked for around an hour/90 mins a day and is happy with that.

I think go for it, agility will do your daughter tbe world of good, it’s an amazing community.

Another wil a border collie suit us question
AliceinSlumberland · 14/05/2023 11:18

I’d also say pick very carefully from a litter and take advice from the breeder. Do not pick the one that ‘runs over to you’ and is most active - with a breed like collies, you want a more chilled puppy.

Lastqueenofscotland2 · 14/05/2023 11:23

It depends on the collie. I’ve met some who are absolute nervous wrecks and can be incredibly fear aggressive.
I personally for a young handler would prefer maybe a smooth collie, which imo are a bit steadier, a bit less anxious but still have more than enough intelligence and drive to work with

fortheloveofflowers · 14/05/2023 11:24

I have a border collie, hates noises like phones, tele and radio. Doesn’t like to sit with us and so would be useless in this situation.
They are easy to train but you might end up with one that just isn’t suited this kind of work.

Sunrisemouse · 14/05/2023 11:29

I would personally go for a rough or smooth collie myself as we had a rough when I was a child and he was the best. That saying my mum reminded me recently that he did her when younger. I don't remember it though.

You have all hit the nail on the head though, how do we find the one with the right temperament.

@IngGenius guess we are just gonna have to nab your boy.... Only joking.

OP posts:
Sunrisemouse · 14/05/2023 11:31

@AliceinSlumberland you girl is gorgeous

OP posts:
Idratherbepaddleboarding · 14/05/2023 11:33

Some collies make excellent support dogs and agility dogs but some are nervous, barky messes! I’d worry that it would pick up on your daughter’s anxieties and become anxious itself. I’d thoroughly recommend a working Labrador. Ours is great at agility and DS handles him. He is also really tuned into emotions, when our friend’s autistic son became overwhelmed in a pub and his under the table, our lab got under with him and gave him cuddles til he called down 🥰.

Lastqueenofscotland2 · 14/05/2023 11:47

I think with collies it can be so so hard to absolutely guarantee you won’t end up with an anxious wreck, which given it’s for a young handler, and a neurodiverse one as well, I’d go for a breed where nervousness is less prevalent… I grew up on a farm so admittedly most of my experience is with the working line, live outdoors types but they were not pets in any stretch of the imagination.
A border collie was also responsible for the worst bite I’ve ever seen which resulted in someone losing their eye. I’m just not their biggest fan and think they need very knowledgeable homes to really thrive

SeaToSki · 14/05/2023 11:54

i cant speak to any personal Collie experience, but is there a way you can get your DD involved in a dog rescue charity or some other activity where she is exposed to lots of different dogs in a hands on way. She might then bond with some other breeds and take the pressure off the need to find a Collie that ‘breaks the mold’ so to speak

IngGenius · 14/05/2023 11:56

@IngGenius guess we are just gonna have to nab your boy.... Only joking.

Tbh he would love to be the only collie and be doted on all day - I will not let him see this thread Smile.

I do slightly disagree about the comments on working and show line.

A good working dog has to have a pretty good temperament. If they are too nervous they can not work, they also need to be able to chill and have an off switch. They are not working with the sheep for hours on end every day. Some days they may not work at all. Dont get a failed working dog thinking they will be less herdy, they wont, they could very likely just be neurotic or too anxious to work.

I have seen some very pretty show dogs that are very unsettled and worried by a lot of things.

It will be a case of doing your research and looking at previous matings and speak to everyone that has had a puppy from the litter.

If you are thinking of a rescue dog think of all the things you can not live with and ask and look and visit and revisit. Dont take the rescues word for what the dog is like

There would be easier dogs to have but I understand the pull of agility however there are some awesome agility dogs that are not collies

IngGenius · 14/05/2023 11:57

Can you get more involved with agility go to some shows and speak to people, speak to your trainer find the collie you want and find out the breeding. Agility is a pretty small world and they will really help you.

(Then decide to get a working labrador instead)

NotMeNoNo · 14/05/2023 12:15

How old is your DD?

Our BC tolerates our anxious ASD son but I think it's more luck than judgement. He mainly looks to DH who is a very steady character.

From my tiny experience I think there would be a risk of two slightly anxious temperaments amplifying each other. An easier dog breed would be less of a risk.

Sunrisemouse · 14/05/2023 13:06

We actually foster ex-puppy farm dogs for a well-known charity, not come across 'the one' one yet but we will continue whilst waiting for litters so that option will be there.

My daughter is 9.5yrs and is really good with the fosters, not to be all over them and giving them the space they need.

I hadn't thought about getting involved in the agility world but that is a good idea, thanks. I guess because I do Hoopers I have just been focused on that. To be honest i would prefer her to do Hoopers because we would eventually be able to compete together and i already have some hoops at home for beginner training.

OP posts:
Newpeep · 14/05/2023 13:10

IngGenius · 14/05/2023 11:12

It depends so much on the collie.I have 6 at the moment.

1 of mine would be ideal, calm loves to nuzzle in for cuddles once bonded with someone he never forgets them. Really gentle with my elderly mum who had dementia and walked slower to be in pace with her etc really empathic to the humans mood. Would work for anyone anytime and anyplace. Happy chilled dog not fazed by anything - pretty rare for a collie!

However the other ones would not be so great. They are all about them and want to be working a lot. A coupe are also very sensitive themselves so loud noises bangs whistles etc just traumatise them and they need to be treated with care and patience.

It is pretty common to have to work on traffic with collies as they will lunge and herd the moving cars also some can be quite reactive and not want to be near other dogs. Some are not really friendly to other dogs so can actually be a quite isolating dog as you may find they are happier avoiding dog encounters.

You must have seen in agility people have a large number of collies but only a few actually complete due to age injuries or temperament.

Most collies hate raised voices and a lively loud house can be stressful for them.

It would not be my first choice of dog for a beginner or an autistic support dog. If your daughter is happy to support the dog as much as it supports her it may work but your daughter may find herself in a caring role rather than supporting. She may have to change her expectations depending on the collie she gets. It is not a given they will be easy to train and do agility.

Collies do need a lot of time given to them, some good exercise (although not excessive) but also the same time again spent on training and just doing things!

However on the other hand if I ship my boy over to you - it would be a great combination

This having taught agility for 14 years, competed myself and knowing a lot of collies! They are all very different.

I wanted a small dog that would enjoy activities like walking, running, agility and other training opportunities, be affectionate but not needy, and have an off switch. We bought a Border terrier from a good experienced breeder. So far she’s a delight - all those things and very easy to train.

Newpeep · 14/05/2023 13:19

IngGenius · 14/05/2023 11:57

Can you get more involved with agility go to some shows and speak to people, speak to your trainer find the collie you want and find out the breeding. Agility is a pretty small world and they will really help you.

(Then decide to get a working labrador instead)

In theory ok BUT I know more than a few agility bred collies who have never been able to cope with that environment.

Border collies are more of a gamble behaviourally than any other breed I have taught (aside from WCS but they’re slightly different). I know some who have come from horrific backgrounds that have been wonderful pets and some bred to be pets who just are not. My friend rehomed the offspring of multiple herding champions because he would rather cuddle than work! Beautiful boy but so not a collie 😂

BounceyB · 14/05/2023 13:25

I'm going to break the mould a bit from this and say the best things about collies is the fact they are so easy to train that you can mould them.

The main issue will be the training - it's at least 2 hours work a day, every day and don't assume it's ever done. They can be fine with other dogs but again you need to start them early and work at it.

My youngest son is brilliant with my boy. I can honestly say the dog is the best thing I've ever done.

Whattodo121 · 14/05/2023 16:12

We have a collie and she is amazing. She is SO well behaved in the house, happily herds our chickens, potters about, completely house trained, no separation anxiety, sleeps on my feet and no bother at all. Out of the house she is slightly more problematic-she is leash reactive to other dogs and really does not like it when other dogs get in her personal space and can snap and growl at them. Her recall and obedience is unbelievable though, she will break off chasing a squirrel if you call her name quietly once! She is ball obsessed and so quick when she’s running around the fields. She’s not keen on people she doesn’t know - she’s very aloof and will give them a wide berth, not allow them to stroke her etc. It takes a long time for her to trust new people. However for the three of us at home (me, DH and DS) she is absolutely soft as butter. I have never known such an affectionate, loving and cuddly dog.

coffeecupsandwaxmelts · 14/05/2023 16:41

I walk border collies and while they can be fantastic dogs, I think they're just too unpredictable to be the main pet for a young child.

Labradors and golden retrievers are hugely popular family pets for a good reason - because they're biddable and reliable and have excellent temperaments.

Border collies are a bit more unique - they are incredibly intelligent and you really have to be on your toes to prevent them from developing unwanted habits.

Basically - you want a dog who will take a command and learn it, not a dog who will take a command, learn it, and then immediately figure out how to do the total opposite Wink

Newpeep · 14/05/2023 17:35

For a good, all round dog, bright, trainable but also very loving have you considered a poodle? Mini or standard (although I prefer the mini). They can excel at agility and are generally lovely to have. That was my second choice but husband has a thing about poodles. Their coats are easier to maintain than the crosses.

OllytheCollie · 14/05/2023 18:29

I think the poodle suggestion is excellent either mini or standard. Both great at agility but the temperaments are a bit more predictable than collies.

It's pretty clear from the variety on here collies are a little unpredictable. And they learn fast but that also means they learn bad habits too. I wouldn't want one as a first dog as an adult. My girl is confident, great with other dogs and good with people but I still don't do agility with her. She is way too excitable and would find it overwhelming. Focus work together when walking or even in the house or garden inc scent work and obedience suits her best.

I think that's the other issue - as you know with your springador but it goes double for collies dogs can bond to one handler. That's a huge responsibility for a young person. My dog needs me for emotional support not the other way around. Now she is adult and calmer we have wonderful snuggles in the evening but it took 2-3 years to get here.

Collies are wonderful and it sounds like you have thought about this carefully. And I am sure you are right about your daughter's level of commitment. But if by bad luck your collie was at the more sensitive or reactive end of the spectrum it could go badly wrong and not give you what you all want.

IngGenius · 14/05/2023 19:26

Newpeep · 14/05/2023 13:19

In theory ok BUT I know more than a few agility bred collies who have never been able to cope with that environment.

Border collies are more of a gamble behaviourally than any other breed I have taught (aside from WCS but they’re slightly different). I know some who have come from horrific backgrounds that have been wonderful pets and some bred to be pets who just are not. My friend rehomed the offspring of multiple herding champions because he would rather cuddle than work! Beautiful boy but so not a collie 😂

I agree.

It would be interesting to see a percentage of dogs that were initially got for agility and that dont do it. I think it would be pretty high. I reckon almost 40%.

Nearly every agility collie owner I know has the one that does other things as agility is not there thing.

IngGenius · 14/05/2023 19:29

Golden retrievers although lovely are pretty rubbish at agility (no offence meant) they will have fun and cause amusement but not a dog for a person wanting to do well in agility. I know I know there will be some but not many.

Now poodle that is a good call! Get a poodle fab at agility , love being taught tricks, make a really sweet little whinging chatty noise. Get a poodle op. Your daughter will love one

Newpeep · 14/05/2023 19:35

IngGenius · 14/05/2023 19:26

I agree.

It would be interesting to see a percentage of dogs that were initially got for agility and that dont do it. I think it would be pretty high. I reckon almost 40%.

Nearly every agility collie owner I know has the one that does other things as agility is not there thing.

Anecdotally a lot! I know many. Some go on to do other things. A lot don’t. I was at a show at the weekend with my terrier pup just walking her round to get a feel for the environment as I’d like to compete with her eventually and it’s extremely stimulating for any dog let alone one that is movement and noise sensitive.

OP buy the breed you want to live with. I’ve taught just about every breed agility and a good trainer will enable you to get the best from your dog whatever the breed. Done well they all love it. The only ones that don’t have had significant health problems. You’re not mad to consider a collie but it’s high risk IMO.

IngGenius · 14/05/2023 19:44

oh god there I meant their!

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