Normal for a working cocker?

[onemoredayplease]

My working cocker is 18 months old. We've attended weekly group training pretty much since she was old enough to attend. I'm a shift worker so we miss the odd session due to that. We also do a high energy class once a week to burn off some energy. We have also had some 1-1 sessions to tackle specific issues.
In addition she has two good walks a day.

She is however extremely hard work. Her lead walking is still poor. Lots of pulling.

If we are in an unfamiliar area it's much, much worse.

She's obsessed with birds. If I can distract her before she becomes fixated I can walk her past quietly. If however she sees the bird before I do she becomes very fixated and starts barking. This escalates until she is almost hysterical if that makes sense. I can't stop her at all.

I'm at a loss. Our trainer says she's doing well 🙄 and that this is what you should expect with this breed. I've had a working cocker before and this certainly wasn't the way she behaved.

Any suggestions? She's a beautiful loving little dog but I'm struggling with her.

Are you going to group general training or specific gun dog training.

Walking on lead for a spaniel is hard work. They zig zag trying to pick up a scent. Honestly I gave up with mine as it was a battle that seemed unnecessary given he spent 90% of the time off lead.

For birds yes they want to chase including anything that moves. I think the key is to work with the natural instinct rather than against it which is why I asked whether it was specific working dog training groups or not.

Are the sessions you’re going to specific gun dog ones? That makes a huge difference. I go to a spaniel only class with my 18 month Springer and it’s mostly about channelling their hunt/retrieve drive so they do it on your terms and don’t go off to find their own fun.

I can’t advise too much about pulling on lead, we have put in hundreds of hours but it’s still a big challenge - unfortunately not uncommon for a spaniel!

Not abnormal. We have found giving our wcs something to carry on his walks calms him down and he pulls less. But as PP has mentioned, he never walks straight.

I second gun dog training rather than general puppy classes

We also do a high energy class once a week to burn off some energy.

I used the think that you needed to burn off energy especially when you get told they need walking etc. It was only when I engaged a gun dog trainer did I realise that it's about working their instincts not trying to tire them out.

So hunting/retrieving dummy's was great plus scent work training did wonders for making him concentrate on me.

It's a general class. I can look for a more specific class but my shifts make that difficult.

For lead walking I totally accept the zig zagging. I don't expect her to stick by my side at all times. The walks are for her and she needs to sniff. I would just like to walk and not be dragged. I get little windows where that happens but it's not for long and if we are somewhere unfamiliar I get none at all. It makes walks unenjoyable at times which is such a shame.

Her recall is good unless there is a bird, then it's awful so I'm reluctant to let her run ( which is what she needs). We do practice this in enclosed dog paddocks which I book for her probably every other week.

I see other working cockers at a younger age walking so beautifully and wonder where I'm going wrong but I can't think what else to do.

Mine is 3 and we have the same issues. He is neutered and we found that helped although it hasn't eliminated it entirely.
I also spent time training him to walk on the lead but found that he was an angel in the training school and a pillock when out walking. Its like he knew he had to behave a certain way but all that training went out the window once we were on a walk. He's getting better on our usual walks but once he's in a new place with new smells he's an absolute nightmare and walks sideways. We have the added problem that he has poor recall as well so a lot of time is spent longline training.
Spaniels require more mental training rather than physical training so maybe walk just once a day and then practice some mental agility at home instead.

That's interesting about the different classes. We do flyball at the minute. It was the only high energy class I could consistently get to. I will have a look what else I can find.

I tried getting her to carry her ball to try and reduce the barking. Absolutely wouldn't have it and she loves her ball.

We did a scent course which tired mine out more than flyball so I’d definitely recommend that if you can find one!

As others say, a good (not old fashioned) gundog trainer will help. The main thing is to look at mental stimulation for wcs- agility, tricks, gundog work, whatever you enjoy. Scent work would be great as they can use their nose in a controlled way. We have 2 wcs, and they are great. The lead walking for the youngest (2) isn't brilliant, but that's because we don't enforce it enough, she can do it when asked!. Firm and consistent work on lead walking should get results- but treat it like any other 'trick' - reward short periods of heelwork with a game on a longline. They are best 'doing' something, which is harder work for the handler, as if you aren't giving them a job (heelwork, retrieving etc), they look to amuse themselves (which is rarely what we want them doing!).

Do you try & get her to check in with you & make eye contact? I have a strong working dog of a similar size & our trainer is very into checking in (& rewarding) regularly. So you walk a bit and get them to look at you, give them a tiny bit of kibble, repeat. Also use hand touch, middle, sit etc so the dog knows it’s worth hanging out with you as you’re fun.

Having similar issues with our working border collie. I'm looking for breed specific classes because general obedience is not really working, despite the teacher having collies of her own

It's fairly normal. I don't have one but teach quite a few agility. They are hard work. I wanted a small, fit, active, easy to train dog. I bought a terrier 😂I couldn't live with a wcs.

You need to channel their drive and use it - you don't necessarily need a gun dog trainer but you do need someone who understands the differences between breed traits and how to engage them.

Re. burning off energy, something like agility or scent work would help you more I think. It teaches a dog self control, focus and isn't about just running around and climbing on things if taught properly. It's very dynamic and dogs like wcs excel at both. Scentwork obviously taps into their natural drive and can be calming for them.

Thanks all. She does check in with me regularly when she's behaving herself so I will try and build on that.

I do think she's quite nervous and gets overwhelmed by things at times. Almost like she's over stimulated and doesn't know what to do with herself. I think I need to try and build confidence.

We do some mental work, hide and seek, working for food etc which she loves.

Interesting about the classes. I will look at what else I can find. I'm not convinced by the flyball as she just gets overwhelmed by the number of dogs there I think then spends a lot of time barking at me, the dogs, the trainer etc.

It's helpful to know I'm not alone with this. My previous working cocker was so different. This has been such a steep learning curve.

Flyball is the worst for revving a dog up. I’m personally not a fan. All the other sports have a huge element of focus and control therefore teach the dog self control and how to listen to you. Flyball does not have this. It also teaches dogs to fixate on balls. We use toys in agility but it’s very controlled and the focus is on engagement with you. I use a food pocket tuggy with my terrier (she’s only just started foundation games at 8 months but I trained and competed with my last terrier cross). This encourages engagement with me. Flyball is fine for some dogs but not those otherwise struggling with those skills.

I'm another one advising you to try a gundog trainer, maybe a one to one once a fortnight or once a month with things to work on in between.

Will she retrieve eg a canvas training dummy? If she will you can do all sorts of fun stuff with one or two of those.

Also look up the Ladies Working Dog Group (LWDG). Very supportive and helpful and the Hot Mess Handler course is a good place to start.

"Flyball is the worst for revving a dog up. I’m personally not a fan. All the other sports have a huge element of focus and control therefore teach the dog self control and how to listen to you. Flyball does not have this. It also teaches dogs to fixate on balls."

I have never done flyball but agree it might have blown her brains a bit. I agree, proper gundog training might be better - over keen overhyped dogs "running in" is a problem pretty much every gundog trainer will have encountered I would think.

Thanks for the suggestions. I will follow them up. I've never tried her with a training dummy but can get one and see what she thinks.

Friend of mine with a cocker does scent work and also rally classes to try and work his brain and tire him out a bit.

Reassuring to read your thoughts on flyball too. I won't be booking another set but will look for alternatives.

I have an 18 month working cocker boy, I've previously had lap dogs so a big learning curve. We've had gundog sessions working on steadiness. I work on these commands when out off lead especially when he isn't listening to me!
I hardly ever walk him on the lead as it's not enjoyable for either of us, we are lucky we have off lead walking nearby. I don't think WC are designed for lead walking!
We also go to agility once a week where he has to use his brain. I never feed his food from a bowl, I hide it, scatter it on the lawn where he has to use his nose (look up canine enrichment)
Him barking at birds whilst sat outside cafes/pubs was a problem for us also. I taught him "watching", I stare at him and when he gives me eye contact for a couple of seconds, treat him. Build up the time and get her to concentrate on you and not the birds. Good luck with your girl.

If you're in a safe 'enough' area that's open, the best way to reinforce recall when there's a distraction like a bird is to run in the opposite direction without slowing or looking at them. They're already in chase mode but as soon as they realise they're about to lose their favourite person they'll switch that focus to you, and chase you. Then when they're racing after you, turn and give the recall command and big fuss.

Then more generally, hide and seek - hide from them on a walk. Step into a bush or behind a tree and watch them look, panic, be confused. Make a small noise and then huge fuss when they find you.

They need to know that you're unpredictable as hell so that they watch you and know they have to return when you call or they risk loosing you.

As for lead pulling. I've given up (springer). We now use a halti headcollar and it's the best invention ever. It's not just a correction either, it does teach them - I can now clip the lead on normally and she'll walk nicely for a couple of minutes without the halti. That's often enough anyway as 95% of her walks are offlead.

Flyball will just tick the high octane box, working spaniels are scent dogs. They work in a specific pattern to find game and flush it to shot, before retrieving. I think gundog training. Even if you can't get to classes you can do your own - the ladies working dog group on fb and online are absolutely fantastic and have so many training videos/online talks etc

Cockers don't really compromise. Mine was the brightest dog I've ever met. Lead walking wasn't fun. I did get there eventually.

We would start and end our walks in the same place but have entirely different walks.

But he never wandered from home. Didn't have a kill drive. Retrieve yes, but not kill. He also was very much a solo dog.

With the birds try to work on steadiness. Find somewhere with lots of birds, like a park with a duck pond. Take her along but just make her sit and watch. We have a working cocker who does work, she is absolutely ball crazy so we used the ball as a reward for good behaviour. As others have said look for a working class, I always recommend this even if people do not want to work their dog.

Second the recommendations for scent work, gun dog and Ladies Working Dog Group. There's also a relatively new group on FB called Training Spaniels with Reward Based Training which is good.

I take my 4 year old sprocker to mantrailing training, which is basically training dogs to find people by scent. It's great for him, plus only one dog is worked at a time, so he doesn't get overwhelmed by all the other dogs there.