kennels advice

[Flamerouge]

Hello,

We have a 3-year-old border collie X kelpie. We had numerous issues with him but had a lot of good advice from this board and other sources, so I'm posting here again. We have had him since he was six months old as he was surrendered to a rescue and had a very unsettled first few months of life and was not well socialised. Since then he has worked really really hard with us and a couple of behaviourists to iron out a lot of problem behaviours we had with reactivity/redirected nipping/controlling movement, etc. He is now a generally lovely boy to be around – very good off-lead, still very reactive on it, but good recall and very smart.

But, we have one problem, which is finding a suitable place for him to go when we go away. We haven’t both been away since we got him, for lots of reasons, but he's a big one. This year I decided it would be my mission to get him used to kennels, so he has been to our local ones in January, February and this week for a couple of nights to get him used to it before we go away for a week in June. While he is in kennels he is apparently good as gold – no separation anxiety, comes in and out of his pen calmly, etc. There is one issue, however, which is the handover, where he will try and nip the kennels staff as I hand his lead over. As soon as I am out of sight (he is very focussed on me) he is fine, but the kennels are understandably wary about having him attempt to bite at handover. They are reluctant to have us muzzle him (my preferred option) as then they have to get close to him to take the muzzle off.

We’ve agreed that next time we go we will use their airlock gates – walk him in and leave him there with a slip lead on and they will then use the gate on the other side to bring him through. This might or might not work, so I am looking for other options also. Does anyone know any kennels or short-term fosterers in Cambs/Herts/Essex/Suffolk who are experienced with this type of herding breed? We would be willing to travel for the right set up. Or any advice/suggestions. I should add:

• he is not at all motivated by food. None of his undesirable behaviours have been issues you can bribe your way out of.
• He is super sensitive. As soon as we turn towards the kennels he knows what will happen - so he is already on edge.
• He is triggered by anyone approaching the car and tries to get back in it when I hand him over.

Thank you!

Could you have someone come and stay in your house with him rather than him going to kennels? That should work better. He will be more relaxed and there will be no on lead handover.

I can't see any reason why the airlock system would fail, but I would recommend that when you leave him alone, you then disappear out of sight completely so that he doesn't try and go back to you.

This is honestly such a minor issue - yes, it's not ideal but it's entirely normal for herding breeds to nip and get anxious. I'm really surprised that the kennels are so concerned about it.

I'm considering this, but he really needs a herding-savvy handler. He is not for the amateur/faint-hearted! Am not adverse to having housesitters, we're used them with the cat before.

Thank you - I have a tendency to catatrophise, and this is really reassuring. I think it's just that we really want to go away after so long and know he is in safe hands - and everything is perfect with these kennels apart from this! I do get their point of view; I think the guy that runs it is actually ok with him, but he's not happy about having his other staff members potentially get bitten. But yes, we'll try the airlock and get well out of sight.

I wouldn’t take my dog anywhere they actively tried to get a away from sorry

He's not actively trying to get away from anyone or anywhere, though.

He's a herding dog with what sounds like an incredibly strong working drive - that means they often don't like groups of people splitting up and can lead to them become anxious and nippy as they try and "herd" the people together.

OP - I walk quite a few collies - some with a stronger drive than others. One old boy has now passed away but you really did need to watch his herding behaviour as it had the potential to get a bit mouthy if you weren't on top of it - I totally get the behaviour you're describing and why it can be unnerving.

• He is super sensitive. As soon as we turn towards the kennels he knows what will happen - so he is already on edge.
• He is triggered by anyone approaching the car and tries to get back in it when I hand him over.

You’re right he sounds delighted to be there my mistake 🙄

when i drop my dog off he’s happy and doesn’t look bad to me. regardless of a herding instinct this dog is getting anxious before he’s even arrived

But your dog isn't my dog. I know my dog, and this isn't 'unhappiness'. (He does the same at the vet and groomer but they just muzzle him - he can't live his life avoid these two places, either). It's breed-specific behaviour that lasts for a moment. He was described today by the kennel owner as 'good as gold', and 'happy' for the rest of his stay; he eats his food, goes in and out of his run with no issues. As a previous poster has identified, this is what herding dogs do to keep their pack together, and it's also how any uncertainty is displayed.

Thank you - it's exactly this. He does have a strong drive, and we've worked hard on it with him. His self-control has improved tremendously. But he picks up on everything (including my emotions) - he is a hyper-focussed dog, as these breeds often are. It's reassuring to know I'm not alone in this.

Would it work if you put him in his room with a few toys and treats and shut the door? This is what happens at the kennels I use and I have a collie

He is stressed and this is stressed behaviour. You say it happens in the vets and groomers so again stressful situations.

If you are totally sure this is the right environment to leave your dog just get someone else to take him to the kennels. If you think it is because he is over focussed on you. However I dont think it is that simple

It must be pretty extreme behaviour however if the kennel staff are concerned. They deal with loads of dogs and if they are showing concern I would be concerned.

Do the airlock system or if he's in a crate maybe or lead him into the kennel and get him settled there... just do as you would when leaving the house.

It's not extreme. He tries to nip, he gets stopped and told off then led away. If it was extreme they would have asked me not to bring him back this time, and cancelled the June booking. I have seen extreme behavoiur from him, and this is not it! I am doing my due diligence by asking for advice, seeking solutions and seeing what's out there, as other posters often have very helpful ideas. So please don't tell me I am neglecting my dog by taking him to kennels. I have put in so much work with him over the last three years - he is a high energy, high prey drive cross of two working breeds who actually does well in kennels because the boundaries are very clear for him.

I could ask my partner to take him next time and might do that, but he is not as pro-active at dealing with the dog as I am, so what you gain in one way you lose in another.

Yes, possibly - I will discuss with them - thank you.

It is extreme if the staff do not want to approach him to remove a muzzle or they are not able to prevent a dog that is showing "normal" in your words nipping behaviour.

They have not come up with the normal suggestions of you walking the dog to the kennel and leaving the dog

They are not happy for a muzzle

They have not suggested a slip lead which can be removed from the dog easily by the staff.

The have not suggested they take the dog directly from the car

I am also surprised that the kennels are so worried about it but for different reasons from coffeecupsandwaxmelts. Kennels are used to dealing with all sorts of behaviour and if they comment or are not happy to deal with it then it is extreme behaviour.

If he stops when told off then there is not a problem.........

They have suggested a slip lead for exactly those reasons, and this is what we're now using. The plan for next time is to walk him into the air lock on a slip lead, for me to walk away, and then they will retrieve him. I disagree with them about the muzzle; they tell me he is fine as soon as I am gone, so there should be no reason for them not to be able to take the muzzle off safely. The first time I took him he was muzzled, they didn't say anything, and they clearly took it off with no problems. However, it's their business, so I have to abide by their requests. I suspect if I really pushed the muzzle point, they would let me do it.

He stops when told off, he defers to the owner. He is absolutely no problem for the duration of the stay. I am simply seeking any further ideas or suggestions around the issue of the handover. I am sure if I asked I could walk him directly into the kennel myself - I am just trying to get some perspective from people so that next time we can make it easier all round.

It's very common in breeds with a high prey-drive, especially if they don't know the person handling them very well.

Unfortunately lots of people don't have experience of herding breeds and assume that any sign of nipping is a sign of fear or aggression.

The collies I walk are all absolutely fine with me now, but at the beginning it took some adjusting and some training on my part so that they knew who I was, what was happening and that they didn't need to herd me back into the house after a walk

We have a collie who went to kennels for the first time earlier this month and it was stressful for slightly different reasons, we had to do it at very short notice as our in-laws were supposed to have her but they had the builders in. She had some settling sessions and then went into the kennel perfectly happily but then wouldn’t come out 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️ they couldn’t get a lead on her and she stubbornly refused to have a lead put on and was growling at the staff. So my mother in law had to be called to put the lead on because we were in Barcelona 🤦‍♀️They then moved the actual kennel she was in to one that opened straight into the exercise pen and then was happy as Larry and ran out happily to play and go for a wee etc. She is very aloof and a slow burn with strangers, but by the end of the five days she had properly bonded with two people and was cuddling them and being amazing and had stopped barking at every other member of staff through the magic of cocktail sausages 🤣
collies are just weird dogs they don’t do things like normal dogs do - luckily the lead kennel hand at the kennels is a dog behaviourist and has a collie herself so is well clued in up their madness and quirks!

Herding dogs will nip.

It is not normal calm behaviour though.

I own train and rehabilitate rehomed collies - it is very few that have nipped. They do it for a reason not just because they are herding dog.

Nipping will be an over threshold or stressed reaction to a situation.

Just to flippantly say it is what herding dogs do no worries is an odd approach.

It would be better to alter the situation so there is no need for the dog to resort to nipping.

Yes - of course. It would be MUCH better to alter the situation so that he doesn't resort to nipping. And that is exactly what I am trying to do - ask for advice, so that next time we might be able to do things differently. I don't want it to be a stressful experience for anyone. This is the third time he has been dropped at kennels and the second time it has happened - so I am not sweeping it under the carpet or ignoring it.

I agree he is over threshold at the point he nips; I spend my life guarding his bucket and managing his threshold, but with the best will in the world, sometimes I fail. I am not flippantly stuffing him in kennels for the fun of it - he needs careful management, and apart from this issue, he is good as gold while there.

@IngGenius if you'd like to see a video of the work we have done with him via a behaviourist, I'd be happy to share it with you. It has been a long slog, but he is worth it.

@coffeecupsandwaxmelts Love it - I bet they would love to herd you about it they were allowed! Agree they can be a slow burn, too @Whattodo121 - mine's circle of trust is small, but growing all the time.

But that's what OP is doing - hence trying the airlock system, and suggesting a muzzle etc. I'm not trying to be dismissive either - it's fact that nipping is more of a problem with herding breeds than (say) hounds or retrievers.

Ultimately, despite everyone's best intentions - it isn't always possible to keep dogs under threshold. Life just isn't that kind, unfortunately, and OP is allowed to go away on holiday and use kennels for her dog, just as she needs to take the dog to the vet and the groomers occasionally.

I think sometimes MN is very idealistic and thinks all dogs can be desensitised to absolutely everything but in reality, life is a lot more complicated than that. Some dogs will have issues that they will never overcome, even with the best of intentions and lots of work going into them.

Yes, they definitely tried at the beginning one still tries his luck but he knows he shouldn't do it and he does listen when I tell him I'm not a sheep!

I walk two on a daily basis and now I know them, they're the easiest dogs on my books, but I definitely have to be on top of their habits as they'll quickly slip back into herding me/people if allowed, lol.

@coffeecupsandwaxmelts thank you for saying that - I completely agree with you. We've spent thousands on behaviourists, considered rehoming him (we couldn't do it to him - he has been through enough), and are completely committed to him. We have fought his corner in every single way. My partner is currently abroad with his mum because we weren't in a position to leave the dog in kennels for a week (he went for two nights this week to help him continue to get used to it).

In the 3 years we have had him, we haven't both left the country at the same time. I don't think it's unreasonable to put him in kennels for a week a couple of times a year. Every other holiday is in the uk, so he can come with us!

His threshold, and his world, were so small when we first got him - every car, bus, person, dog, child, bike was a trigger. He is a million times better than he was, but we still manage him carefully. We don't walk him on pavements, he is off lead as much as possible, we moved house so it would be quieter for him. He is not an aggressive dog, but at moments of stress, he reverts to the old habits. I am working SO hard not to put him in those situations. I love him.

@Flamerouge he is absolutely stunning! What a handsome boy who is incredibly lucky to have such kind and caring owners.

I see a lot of rescues in my job - every single one has come along in leaps and bounds since being with their current owners. There's a lot to be said for loving owners and a safe, stable home life - it really makes the world of difference. But unfortunately some dogs have been through so much that no amount of training or desensitisation will "fix" them.