Is it possible to teach good recall to an older dog (with high prey drive)?

[StillMedusa]

My dog is 4 so well past the puppy stage. Easy puppy but became reactive after being injured by another dog, and so most of our training efforts were directed at helping her feel better about the world, and having lovely long solitary walks, where she discovered squirrels and other animals.

Her reactivity is much improved now, although I am still cautious. However.. her recall is not great: I clip her on immediately if I see an unknown dog as she is still inclined to rush up , but a few days ago we were out in the middle of nowhere having a lovely chilled stroll though familiar woods... when we came across a herd of Roe deer (first time we have ever seen any there) and she was GONE... luckily no where near roads, but she vanished for at least 5 mins, I had no idea where.
Of course all my common sense went out of the window and I just yelled for her. And she came back.. she always comes back when I call but not immediately.

Back to a long line it is... but I would really really like to try and improve her recall and impulse for my sanity and her safety.. is it possible with a mature dog?
She's not very food motivated, and not remotely interested in balls/toys.. sniff and hunt is her happy place.

She's not a gun dog, but I wonder if that sort of trainer might be able to help?
Any advice welcomed!

I'm in a similar position. 2.5 year old labrador rescue. Recall is largely when he feels like it, depending on what else he's found. Fortunately he is not interested in chasing other animals (just other dogs), but I still need him to reliably return when I call him. He's around 50% reliable currently.

I am trying the following:-

1. Basic sit, leave it, look at me, and stay
2. Loose lead walking with extended times of heel (loose lead is not heel in my mind just for clarity)
3. Long line with much practicing of recall with various rewards. Ball works well here.
4. All this in a many different environments as possible.
5. Random leave it drills in unexpected (to dog) places to prepare for when it happens for real.

Some of this may not sound directly linked, but in my thinking, it all adds to the bond and him looking to me for direction.

Good luck, and keep us posted how you do.

Thank you for your reply :)

I HATE the long line with a passion, I admit, though I will use it again. I have the ability to tie myself in knots and have never managed to stamp on it if needed!!

I need to figure out THE best reward , but she has a sensitive stomach (and a long double coat) so have to be a bit careful with food treats...and NOTHING at the moment is more exciting than a rabbit or squirrel. (No kill drive thankfully so I don't mind her staring longingly up a tree but the risk of her one day somehow running somewhere dangerous terrifies me)

She's a good loose lead walker , doesn't pull... until SQUIRREL! I walked her through Bournemouth gardens last weekend when visiting my Mum. She was on a normal lead, saw three bloody squirrels right in front of her (they are so tame they are everywhere) and she pulled me stright over the knee high metal railings surrounding the grass areas... my shins are still black :( So she needs to be able to heel on command and I have no idea how to start!

She is perfect at home, easy to live with, but she loses her marbles the second anything she can chase comes into view!

The only thing that works for me are high value treats - chicken etc.

We have taught a no game cue however it only works when we have spotted first whatever may make them pull towards it.

We are working with our younger dog on the long line to try not to tell him what to do but for him to make his own decision. I feel like we're never going to get there though. He will come back but it's not instant and he just wants to play with everyone.

He's 45kg so the long line is hard work.

Use her prey drive as a reward? Get a tug e nuff like this and become the squirrel! https://www.tug-e-nuff.co.uk/products/rabbit-skin-chaser-tug?variant=37808293642414&currency=GBP&utmmedium=producttsync&utmsource=google&utmmcontent=sagorganic&utmmcampaign=sagorganic&wi=off&gad=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwi46iBhDyARIsAE3nVrZOT8EE-qWhz6UMb1SZMhLvljfbHxjq7iNrs9fIo1ZyzLsolj3lEsaAqLHEALww_wcB

I find a well motivated game better than any food reward. It's worth a try 😊😊

Our dog didn’t , for a variety of reasons go offlead until he was about 16 months , we got him as an older puppy rescue and he was recurrently ill. He’s a patterdale mix and has a very high prey drive . He goes offlead every day but I only let him off in places where I know we won’t have any failures - our local heath/ green space , the beach , parks etc where I can see him at all times . I never let him off in our local nature reserve because I know there is a likelihood that he’d go down a fox / rabbit hole . He doesn’t respond to food at all so we trained him using tennis balls and he’s not allowed balls at home so they stay special .

I need to figure out THE best reward
Yes, and it may not be food. What about a squeaky toy? Or something similar. I found out by happy accident that my neighbour’s Labrador - that I was looking after for two months - could not resist a tennis ball, had to be a specific blue and yellow one with a squeak though. It was his kryptonite, couldn’t help himself 😁. Most importantly they only came out when I said so, he had no other access to them, they resided in my dog walking bag only (which also made me very interesting, more interesting than that random dog half a mile away on the beach 😁. Used also in conjunction with a Thunderer whistle as when out on a windy beach, calling him wasn’t always loud enough.

Some dogs just won't recall off prey, no matter how much training you do, because the thrill of the chase is way better than anything a human can offer them.

And unfortunately once the dog has experienced the chase, the likelihood of you getting them to come back the next time is slimmer, and will continue get slimmer the more times the recall fails, iyswim.

Our beagle can't be trusted up the woods so he just has no choice but to stay on a lead up there. The risks of him running off are just too high. He only goes off lead on the beach nowadays.

When you mentioned high prey drive in your thread title,I was all ready to come on and say 'Balls!', but then you mentioned that your dog wasn't interested in toys. It is unusually for a high prey rive not to spill over onto toys, and
I wondered if you could exploit the prey drive to teach an interest in toys.

Play loads of chase/find/tug games at home that make the toy more and more rewarding. There are plenty of things that don't start out being fun, but become fun through association. (Snow, for example, was the dullest of dull for my dog until humans started throwing it)
The games you play would have to be adapted to whatever gives your dog the biggest kick.
Ultimately it could be quite useful that the dog isn't interested in the ball itself (only in what YOU do with the ball), because then he will give it up to you more readily, and his focus will be squarely on the fun that you bring to it.

I came to say exactly what coffeecups said. I've got a lurcher type dog and there is nothing I can do or offer her that will compete with the thrill of the chase. She stays on a long lead most of the time now.
Why do you hate the long lead? Mine knots but not too badly. It's made from biothane and is much easier to unknot than a rope type.
I also wear gloves all year round which makes handling it a bit nicer. I find thin, cheap builders/gardening gloves best. Portwest are good. Your hands don't get too hot and they offer some water protection from the wet and bits they pick up on the palms.

As for being pulled over, do you think a waist belt would help? I didn't get on with it so just try to be aware of what is around us and watching her body language so I'm ready in case she does pull.

For a dog with high prey drive, there may be nothing you can offer them that beats the chase, especially once they know how much fun it is.

Being on a long line all your life isn't great for welfare, and this is why most gundog trainers will use aversives to teach a dog what it must NOT do. Deer and hares are tricky, though, as they appear so unexpectedly, hares especially.

Yup, this. I have a sighthound, notorious for a high prey drive. He only goes off lead in the dog park. Everyone I know with similar breeds does the same. Literally nothing can compare to the thrill of the chase.

Our current dog is more nose than brain. So fabulous recall unless he sees prey! I’m sure someone who is a more skilled trainer or has more time to devote to training could make improvements but I’ve just accepted the reality. He’s a fabulous dog in the house. We live very rurally so he’s got space to run around the garden all day long, which we’ve secured so he can’t get out. Walks are either on short lead around villages, towns where I let him stop and sniff everything or on long leads from home or up in the hills. I have found some woods nearby where there are no sheep with rabbits and pheasants and I go there whenever I can when I have the time to stand and wait if he “gets the scent”. He always comes back to where he last saw me so I don’t walk there with friends anymore as if I didn’t stand and wait and walked on, he couldn’t find me! It works for him and for me. Especially as he barks when he’s got the scent so I know roughly where he is!

We knew before we got him that he’ll likely be our last dog so that makes it easier to ignore the annoying bits and enjoy the cuddles and the good bits of having him.

It is hard with a dog with established high prey drive BUT dont give up.

I would not use recall when your dog has seen something move or is about to chase. Walk your dog on a lead and always ask for a sit when they see movement. This can be kids running by or cars rabbits, ducks, birds, deer etc.

Over time this will/may become default behaviour (sight hounds it will be harder). Then when you have a sit to movement you will have way more control over the recall.

Work on recall as mentioned on the puppy recall thread as a different skill to call off chasing.

Thank you for your replies! I'll have a look at a different longline (I have the massive black ribbon type and I swear it tangles itself like headphone cables when I'm not looking)
I'm conflicted because I do NOT want her on a long line always and forever.. she lives for running across fields and through woods (we are quite rural) and as she is still unpredictable around other dogs, 'dog parks' are a no go.. neither of us would be comfortable. She is great with a few selected dogs.. no problems when out with the dog walker as she knows them and has fun, but unknowns make her hugely anxious.
So our joint happy place is wild and free. I try to choose places that are low risk of course, but like the other weekend... you just never know for sure.
Really I just want her to be able to pause long enough to grab her harness and clip her back on if she is off lead!
She always comes back (so far) and I know she always has a good idea where I am.. she's an intelligent (and stubborn) girl. My walker lost her once.. down one of our local haunts, when she took off after a Muntjac.. 20 mins later dog walker goes back to her car, a mile away to call me... and my dog was sitting by her car, waiting for her.. poor dog walker aged that day! She now wears a tractive tracker for that reason!

I think the 'sit when she sees movement' is probably the way forward. She is not a sighthound breed wise but but she IS in her prey drive.. it's movement that sets her off. She has not noticed a rabbit sitting 10 feet away..til it moves, then BANG.
I might get a flirt pole and see if we can get her responding to that as a tool to get her responding to me better too.
Thank you for the replies so far.. and keep them coming!

Chasing muntjac is something you really want to prevent. Muntjac have ferocious canine teeth, more like tusks, that can lay a dog open.

I wish you luck. Prey drive is something else.

My Lab started poo eating with his teenage phase and again, like chasing, there seems nothing I can offer that is more interesting than poo. He's usually on a biothane long line and runs free less at 17 months than he did a year ago. I am thinking a muzzle is the only option now. It's been leave, look at me, click, reward for so long now that I do it in my dreams.

I think the 'sit when she sees movement' is probably the way forward. She is not a sighthound breed wise but but she IS in her prey drive.. it's movement that sets her off. She has not noticed a rabbit sitting 10 feet away..til it moves, then BANG.

My beagle is the same and it's genuinely impossible to call him off that chase once he's started. His ears switch off and I may as well be invisible. I've tried absolutely everything and he's great until he sees movement, then he's gone. Asking him to "sit" or "stay" only works in the house - it won't work with prey out and about, even when he's on a lead. He just goes deaf.

I know it's hard when you see people who always seem to have their dogs off the lead, but I do think it's important to remember that there are lots of dogs who will never have solid recall for a whole number of reasons - breed, temperament, early experiences, prey drive etc.

Personally I go for safety over everything else - my beagle can be trusted at the beach because the only thing there is to chase is seagulls and once they've flown off, he loses interest and comes back. But deer, rabbits etc. don't fly off and just run and run - and it's just not safe for him to run off out of my sight like that, so if I know there are animals around, on the lead it is.

You have my sympathy OP. We are surrounded by deer, hares and pheasants where we live and as soon as we’re out the door for a walk my lab and BT are picking up the scent and gagging for a chase. I have to keep both on leads 😣

I’ve decided we’re going for a low prey breed when we get another dog. 😅 Although not sure if they exist 🤔

https://www.trixie.de/en/productworld/dog/leads-collars-harnesses?filter%5BFILTER_LEINE_ART%5D%5B0%5D=Tracking%20leads&filter%5BFILTER_FARBE%5D%5B0%5D=pink&filter%5BFILTER_FARBE%5D%5B1%5D=red&filter%5BFILTER_FARBE%5D%5B2%5D=orange&filter%5BFILTER_MATERIAL%5D%5B0%5D=webbing%20tape

my springer / lurcher cross is a nightmare once she’s on the chase. She’s only allowed to run free in safe spaces, we haven’t done the beach yet, and I always run her loose on one of those long lines. Visible, which is very helpful when in shared spaces, and light enough. Totally recommend using gloves, and they can be washed easily too. I’m almost relieved others have the same problems and limits as me, I’d love the relaxed walking at heel type, but I also love her energy…

What breed? I have an American akita and I've never seen a prey drive like it. For me, it's not worth it because there are so many poorly trained small dogs and other things around here that I use a long line and it can still be a nightmare. If I'm not certain no one is around, I wrap it in my hand to make sure there is a reasonable length and no one is tripping. It's a solid one and it works really well. Dogs don't NEED off leash time if they are well invigorated on their walks.

That being said, I do know other Akita owners that have rock solid recall.

This is about teaching self control against temptation.

you need a good strong ‘leave it’ drilled in to them

this isn’t about hearing their name and knowing you want them.

you need to introduce into your training routine/walk a game where you leave a treat in front of them and get them to wait for your signal
then an increasingly long trail of them
then get them to stop between treats on the trail and wait again for your signal.
practice lots and reward heavily with their top reward after they’ve done a session of it.

The trick with teaching a dog NOT to do something is to teach them to do it on command and then you can use no to tell them when they shouldn’t do it.
From biting to prey drive control… if they’re so keen it’s a problem behaviour you need to meet them where they are at give them things they can bite/chase

TakeMyStrongHand she's a Eurasier... so a stubborn minded (but loving and gorgeous) Spitz breed. The original KC specs had them down as ' low prey drive' but as many of the breed club members testify... not true! Her mother and sisters are also chasers. I have met a few Eurasiers with low prey drive but the majority are just like her...and they live to chase. No kill instinct thankfully.

I've ordered a flirt pole as I do think she will be interested and am going to work on getting more engagement with her before trying to work on a release/hold cue. It may not work and she is not going to be impressed with a longline all the time (for now) but I know I need to stop her reinforcing her own habbits.

I suspect she's never going to be obedient in a gun dog style manner and I want her to be a happy dog.. there is nothing better than seeing her dashing across a field towards me after a good sniff down some rabbit holes with her happiest face, but I do want to a) stop her rushing up to dogs b) have a split second chance to grab her if I spot her alert signals!

Our one is quite rough material and I have had a couple of nasty friction burns. I find the whole thing quite stressful but gloves are the way forward.

Our malamute doesn't really appear to have a prey drive, he has lived with a pug and 2 cats from 9 weeks old so possibly that's why. He does seem to want to go near small animals but only to play, he's quite submissive to smaller animals. Birds he will run within a metre of then get scared when they move. He just is a goofball who wants to play and be free.

We had some progress today as there were some cats on the wall next door and I was indoors, he was jumping around on his back legs trying to see them, I called him from indoors, ran backwards with my arm up (treat in hand) and called come. He came straight indoors to me. I was really surprised.

Get a GPS collar. There's a sound alarm on the Tractive one that makes our dogs head for home immediately (we didn't train them, just happened) but I bet you could use it with treats for recall after a long run.