Good breeder vs mixed breed...

[DrMeredithGrey2023]

Is it possible to get a mixed breed dog from a good breeder?

I have been told numerous times that my dog (poodle mix) has been unethically bred...no breed standard (due to him not being a breed), no purpose for them etc etc. Therefore, I got him from a BYB. BYB = not a good breeder.

I've also seen others say they have gotten a mixed breed (which breeds weren't said) from a good breeder.

What makes a good breeder? Breeding within breeds to maintain a standard? Health checks? Checks on possible owners? Does the amount they charge for a pup come in to it all all? Is my dog only labelled unethically bred as they are so common, or do you say the same for all cross breeds?

Obviously there's always the argument that with the amount of dogs in shelters, all breeding for profit is unethical.

Just wondering what others thoughts are.

I'd question why they were breeding a mixed breed. For me its 90% byb who usually are misrepresenting what they have.

There are some valid reasons for working dogs etc for example dogs are specifically breed for flyball that are usually mixes

Theres often lots of miss selling of what a cross means. For example doodles are bred like they are a solid breed with a consistent temperament and coat. A mixed breed dog could be either of its parents in any mix, for example there's no telling they will be hypoallergenic rather than have the fur of a spaniel, and their temperament could be anything from both parents. You should always be willing to have a pure puppy of both Breeds

In something like a pomsky for example they are advertised to people who don't want a husky and the breeder will never make them aware that actually it might have every negative of a husky, and every negative of a pom (eg high prey drive and barky) and that's just as likely as having the positives of both. If you wouldn't get a full husky because of their prey drive for example then you shouldn't be getting a husky mix.

Some even amplify bad habits eg dogs with high energy needs being mixed with dogs with low frustration tolerances.

I've never seen a doodle breeder that does the full health checks that one would do if you were breeding two spaniels or two poodles for example.

Mixed breeds also aren't inherently healthier either. For example both a sprocker gets preloading for hip dysplasia from both parents just like a full breed one does except the parents are much more likely to hip scored if its kc registered

Certainly none of the doodles locally to me are responsibly bred

My poodle mix was bred from health tested parents - however I don't know what the full list of health checks would be from both sides so I couldn't categorically say either way there.

He was bred from 2 mixes that were from a longline of the mixes. And the breeder was honest in that she couldn't guarantee coat type - they've not had a pup from them she's in quite some time, but still wouldn't guarantee it.

I can see all the points that everyone makes about poodle mixes, or just seems odd to me that they don't direct the same level of outrage towards all mixed breeds.

One would assume that if poodle mix breeder were BYB, then so are all mixed breeders, and therefore it wouldn't be possible to get a 'good breeder'

If you don’t have the list of health checks the “health test” could just be the MOT when they go for their yearly jabs (my vet listens to the hearts, weighs them, checks teeth etc). Poodles should have eye tests for example. Anyone breeding a poodle cross should be checking eyes.

Sorry, I have a copy of the health checks done, I just wouldn't know if they are the exact same ones as the ones that the breeder of pedigree poodles and pedigree labs would have done.

The mandatory testing for any breed is readily available online.

OP I have an Australian labradoodle - he’s bloody brilliant. He’s bred from parents that had an extensive list of health tests and a pedigree even though its not a recognised KC breed - DNA tests:

prcdPRA - Progressive rod-cone degeneration progressive retinal atrophy - results in loss of vision.

PRA, RCD4 - Progressive retinal Atrophy, Rod-cone dysplasia 4 - is a late-onset inherited eye disease resulting in loss of vision.

vWD - Von Willebrand disease - blood clotting disorder.

EIC - Exercise-induced collapse - strenuous activity can result in weakness or collapse.

DM - Degenerative myelopathy - a progressive disease of the spinal cord.

IC - Improper coat/furnishings - results in the dog having less facial hair/the facial hair taking longer to grow in.

NEWS - Neonatal encephalopathy with seizures - an autosomal recessive developmental brain disease.

Also had hip, elbow and patella tests.

Everyone has an opinion about poodle mixes and people are very sniffy about them. I waited for 18 months on a list with my breeder, who has been doing this for 20 years and vetted me thoroughly before I could even go on her list. I was happy with that and I have no regrets.

Good breeder taken from their website:
"When you buy a dog from a reputable breeder you buying the years of experience, triumph and despair that lie behind the establishment of a sound and well respected bloodline and the assurance that you and your puppy will always have a knowledgeable and trusted advisor and a safety net in times of crisis."
"Ethical and caring breeders are first and foremost breed enthusiasts seeking to produce that elusive "perfect dog" or to continually improve their own lines through careful selection."
"...the responsibility the breeder takes on after homes breakdown and dogs or puppies are returned, sometimes after neglect or ill-treatment and the long weeks and months of rehabilitation the breeder may spend repairing the damage done by inadequate owners."
"No caring or ethical dog owner would want to bring puppies into the world without carefully considering the consequences. Breeding is a serious matter that should only be undertaken by those prepared to research sufficiently to make enable them to make informed choices, undertake the burden of care and cost involved in doing so ethically and take responsibility for their actions over a period of many years."
"a good breeder will spend a great deal of time researching which lines and which particular dogs will compliment or improve different characteristics of her bitch."

I grew up with Heinz 57-type mongrels from the local pound, as a child. They were all healthy, good-natured family pets.

Times have changed, most dogs are neutered now and dogs aren't allowed to roam. As such, there are very few of these dogs available. There are lots of pedigrees, but many pedigrees suffer from problems resulting from inbreeding and/or being bred to the breed "standard", which seems to prioritise looks over health or temperament.

I think there's a place for dogs that are bred just to be good-natured, healthy family pets, and that can include cross-breeds. I have one myself! She was carefully bred to create a healthier cross of a popular (but unhealthy) family pet (cavalier king charles, in my case). Her parents and grandparents were health-tested for their various breeds. As to her nature, there were no guarantees as to which parent or grandparent she would take after, but as they were all nice, friendly breeds. She's a perfect family pet.

TLDR: good breeders and cross breeding are not mutually exclusive, as long as it's done with care (no bulldog-chihuahua crosses please).

One point to make about cross-breeding is that the puppies will have next to no risk of inheriting recessive genetic diseases usually only carried by one of the parent breeds. This is one reason why crossed and mongrels are, on average, healthier than pedigrees. Issues on both sides (hip dysplasia being a common one) should still be tested for.

Like @MissVantaBlack I think that breeding a healthy and temperamentally sound family pet is a perfectly sensible breeding aim. Much better than than yet another highly intelligent and very driven working cocker ending up a manic, resource-guarding mess in a pet home with owners who didn't want and cannot cope with a dog with those needs.

the problem is finding good, ethical breeders full stop. I do think there are some crossbreed breeders who love their dogs and want to develop them into a proper breed through health testing and striving for consistency. Or they are breeding dogs with an excellent temperament with health tests.

i also think there are some extremely questionable pedigree dog breeders who might health test, but then who also line breed poor quality dogs. Those dogs are KC registered, the breeder looks reputable, but the dogs are worse off for it. A relative has a dog from a breeder exactly like this.

there are also breeders who once their bitch has had her 4 pedigree, KC registered litters will then start with the poodle outcross because they can get more money for them. I know personally of another breeder who does this.

buying a labradoodle from health tested parents from breeders who are carefully selecting the parents based on health, confirmation and temperament is better than buying from a breeder like the ones above. Trouble is whether you can really spot the real motivation behind the reasons for breeding or not.

My youngest dood’s breeder is fantastic. All of the health checks (from both parents) that @Andywarholswig comprehensively listed above, a full interview with us plus she reserves the right to stop the sale if, on collection, she had any reservations about the buyers. Full 1st vaccinations & vet checked pups, well socialised, wormed & flea treated, weekly pupdates & videos. Also, on collection, we had to sign contracts that banned breeding from our pups, and we can return the dogs in circumstances where they need to be rehomed.

She also runs a FB group for pup parents, and many of her pups (and their breed lines) are used as PAT & support dogs.

We already had one dood (he’s 11 now), his breeder did basic Labrador tests on the mother, and the stud had been tested (from a well known poodle breeder).

We’ve had 3 other dogs, all KC registered, with far less testing!

I think with all breeds & cross breeds, there will be breeders who are out to make quick money with ‘fashionable’ breeds. Likewise there are owners who don’t do their research, don’t realise the huge responsibility of dog ownership (especially poodle mixes).

I spend at least an hour a day grooming my boys, whilst the parks are flooded round here with matted, untrained cockapoos & goldendoods with no manners (a great uptick during the lockdown). Or people whining on FB their dood or cockapoo is destructive; poodles are one of the most intelligent breeds, they need to be kept busy in both mind & body!

Prospective owners need to research all breeds that their pup has in their bloodline, as, especially first generation mixes, could have any positive or negative trait from the breeds involved.

Yes, my boys are great, huge, fluffy love monsters with teddy bear coats, but that’s thanks to a hell of a lot of training, grooming, time & money (did I mention I spend at least £150 a month on professional grooming, on top of my hour a day brush-fests?).

I am biased, but I’d rather see a well cared for, trained & bred dood than a smaller pedigree dog bred for looks with collapsing & tiny nasal structures, eye issues, wrinkles, and greatly foreshortened lifespans, huffing & puffing along. Or German Shepherds with sloping backs & poor gait (had a rescue GSD growing up, breed standards have definitely changed in 40 odd years). KC registration doesn’t guarantee quality.

Although I have pedigree dogs, I don't have an issue with any dog or mix that is truly bred under the criteria that I would look for in a pedigree dog:

• Dam a sensible age before mating (not too young or too old) and not bred to excess
• Dam of good temperament and health
• Sire of good temperament and health
• All breed relevant tests done for both parents
• Reared in the home, on quality foods, and good prescription worming regime
• Pups looking bonny, healthy and happy
• Breeders who only have a small and manageable number of dogs, so they all have a good level of attention.

Obviously on top of those, I would want good breed type in a pedigree dog, and to be honest would also prefer it in a mix if I did ever consider buying one - I would still want good conformation, as poor construction leads to problems, and appropriate bone (not to light or too heavy).

However - the number of cross-breeders who operate to these criteria seem to be incredibly small. For any website anyone has ever posted on here showing reams of health tests etc., a delve in to the licence details will nearly always show excessive breeding numbers which are just fronted by a professional website designed to appeal to pet owners. The reality of what is in the sheds out the back can be very different.

So, a fundamentally well-bred cross from someone having a litter or two at home and rearing them as I would rear puppies myself doesn't offend me. The trouble is, it is so difficult to tell which you are dealing with - breeders can be very clever, and it does offend me that so many people make no effort to work out who they are buying from, as long as they get a cute puppy. The puppy farming trade is evil.

Only one reason why people breed dogs..... money. I don't care what anyone wants to argue. They do it for money. How can there be any such thing as a good breeder. This all should be stopped till all the rescue kennels are empty

I know of a breeder who is so concerned in the changes of their breed that have happened over time from what they consider were the original breed characteristics, that they are breeding a cross breed that will bear more resemblance to what the traditional breed characteristics of the original breed would have been. (hope that makes sense!) I find that quite interesting. They do carry out many health checks to try and ensure good physical health and a good temperament.

I see people say this a lot... IF I have a litter it will be because I want a puppy I can keep and because I feel my dogs are good examples of their breed with good temprements and good health. I have already spent a fortune on health tests, not knowing if I will even breed, because health testing for as many dogs as possible benefits the breed overall. On top of that, I spend anything between £500-£1000 per month trawling the country showing my dogs and hopefully soon working them will be added to that and the cost associated with that. I buy them what I believe is the very best food possible, they are insured, they have appropriate vaccination/worm/flea tick treatment. All of which, frankly, costs an absolute fortune.

IF i decide to breed a litter, or even a few litters over the course of their lifetime (at the appropriate age of course) where is the money/profit? If it was a business I would be out of business.... My dogs are my pets, our famiy pets. I'm also very lucky that I have a hobby with them that we all enjoy.

According to a parliamentary debate quoted in Hansard, a few years ago rescues in the UK were rehoming about 110,000 dogs a year. At the time, the canine population of the UK was about 9 million dogs. If we assume an average canine life expectancy of about 10 years, that's 900,000 puppies a year to keep numbers steady. So, in theory, it wouldn't take long to empty said rescue kennels.

The problem is that a lot of dogs in those kennels need very specific homes - no DC, no other dogs, no cats, sometimes no canine neighbours, can't be off-lead, have to muzzled when out etc etc. People with children or cats or want to do particular activities with their dogs are not good matches for dogs like that.

And besides, if someone goes to the effort of selecting a good mate for their bitch, takes good and proper care of said bitch during pregnancy and whelping, brings the puppies up carefully for 8 weeks and then finds them suitable homes and so on, I honestly have no problem with them earning some money at the end of it, for the time, effort and skill they have put into it all. Even more so if the bitch is proven in some way.

There are people who stick two dogs together and sell the puppies for two grand each. There are puppy farmers. But there are plenty of good breeders out there, too. To say that there aren't any indicates an astonishing degree of ignorance.