How can we increase the number of good breeders?

[LastOfTheChristmasWine]

I'm slightly thinking out loud here, but interested to know what others think

At the moment, we have a problem nationally

• there is something of a shortage of well-bred puppies; good breeders have lengthy waiting lists.
• there is great demand for puppies, and everyone wants well-bred puppies (or says they do; wilful blindness to puppy farms aside).
• puppy farmers, unscrupulous breeders and to some extent imported puppies are filling the gap between supply and demand.

Breeding dogs well is a very labour-intensive process, and the things which people often consider to be a sign of a good breeder naturally constrain supply, such as

• not having too many dogs in total
• raising the puppies in a home environment
• only letting each bitch have four litters (KC rules, used to be six litters)
• not rehoming ex-breeding dogs to make space for more breeding dogs
• always being able and willing to take back dogs if they need rehoming

All of these are completely justifiable but the unintended result is that a good breeder cannot produce as many good litters as they otherwise might.

The barriers to becoming a breeder are quite high; anyone who asks about it on MN is told not to even consider it; indeed there is something of a stigma about it. I'm sure some of these people could learn all the necessities, and might even have a suitable dog for breeding. Honestly I'm not sure how anyone gets into breeding good quality dogs.

My suggestion is - could good breeders encourage their purchasers to breed from their dogs, if they grow up to be a good example of the breed? It could look like

• puppy contract features the requirement to bring the dog in for an assessment of breeding potential as a young adult, to include genetic tests for PRA etc etc.
• if deemed a good candidate for breeding, the original breeder identifies a mate and organises things
• bitch could whelp and rear puppies either at owners or breeders home, with support and oversight from the experienced breeder, depending on mutual preference, and return to the owner after the puppies go off to their new homes.
• dog lives in an entirely normal pet home for the vast majority of their life, without being rehomed at the end of their breeding life.
• breeder retains responsibility for things like returned puppies and future assessments of those puppies.

I'm sure many dogs, bitches in particular, with good genetics go off to pet homes and are spayed, while bitches with crap genes are bred in sheds and live miserable lives to make up for the demand.

I'm aware of some dodgy breeders of XL bullies etc using co-own type arrangements as a means to obfuscate the breeder licencing process, but this would be in many ways a welfare-focused means to improve the conditions of your average breeding dog. Ideally this would be coupled with a crackdown on the puppy farms (West Wales, I'm looking at you...)

Interested to hear what others think - with the overall demand of having supply of well bred puppies meet demand and puppy farms being put out of business because people have better options.

I personally think it would be more beneficial to regulate dog ownership and reduce the number of unsuitable people who feel entitled to own one or more dogs even when they can't give it a decent home.

“Honestly I'm not sure how anyone gets into breeding good quality dogs.”

They usually get into it because they’re doing something that requires dogs, showing, a sport etc.

Which is kind of where your plan falls a bit short, you can’t assess a dog at a certain age, it wants to be proven at something and most pet owners don’t want to do that or they’d have taken it up anyway.

I also think it’s ownership that needs regulating tbh.

In short, I don’t think you can. Everyone I know who breeds does it because they are passionate about improving the breed or have a goal in mind (another show dog or dog for working/sport)

The waiting list for my breed can be years mainly because most breeders have only a small handful of dogs within the home…maybe people should be more patient in order to get a dog suitable for them.

I don't think you can.

If you want properly breed your dogs, it's expensive and time-consuming and risky - even if you do everything right, there's still a risk that the dam will die or suffer permanent damage as a result.

Personally I would never, ever buy a puppy that the breeder still had control over in that way. I don't want to breed dogs and I don't want to buy a dog that's going to be taken off me and bred (with all the risks associated with that).

I also don't think you can do much to control dog ownership. How are you going to stop people from buying and owning dogs when you can still go and buy them off a mate down the road for £50?

Education. If people demand good breeding, health tests, breeding for temperament that the breeding dogs are well cared for and/or loved then things can change.

We tried to rescue for over two years and failed. We have a cat and we both work (one from home permanently). I'm an agility trainer. We both have loads of experience. We wanted an adventure buddy and good all round pet after losing our rescue dog who was all of those (with a bit of management).

We gave in and bought a puppy from good lines. She would be a great show and breeding prospect I suspect as well as having a super temperament. But that is important to us. People are stunned we paid so much for a dog that is on paper high quality when we intend to neuter her when old enough. But that loads the dice in our favour for what we want.

Good breeding is not just about showing. I hear so many people say 'I don't want to pay that much as I just want a pet'. They don't understand that pups dad is a show dog so is happy and relaxed in a crowd and good with other dogs, can be handled and shows well (not something a stressed dog will do). Pups mum is a much loved family pet with again, good lines and a lovely laid back temperament. Show lines rather than working (terrier so really all working but they do vary in drive) so less likely to be a flight risk and when not too puppy ok with our cat.

No guarantees with dogs but you can load the dice to give you the best chance.

Our pups breeder was making very little money on her pups given the care she was giving to the dam and also the pups, health tests, vet checks, medication, registration, stud fees, paying someone to cover her business so she could raise them properly etc etc. She doesn't know how people can do it for less - badly is the answer.

I agree with you there - but then again those who are willing to buy dogs from disreputable breeders and backyard puppy farms probably won't concern themselves with following the formal route to becoming a dog owner.

This.
I own one of the breeds at the top of the At Risk native breeds.
Always shown, all over the country, & bred the occasional litter. Always had a long waiting list for the few litters. Showing is a very expensive hobby with little return, most would be surprised at the paltry prize money compared to entry fees then there’s the fuel to travel. The exhibitors who breed, not all do, mostly only do so when they want a new puppy to bring on & to support & preserve/ improve the breed they’re passionate about.
Most of the points suggested by the OP are pretty much regular practice already amongst breeders/ exhibitors I know.

Newpeep
”I hear so many people say 'I don't want to pay that much as I just want a pet'. They don't understand that pups dad is a show dog so is happy and relaxed in a crowd and good with other dogs, can be handled and shows well (not something a stressed dog will do). Pups mum is a much loved family pet with again, good lines and a lovely laid back temperament.”

This too.

I sometimes hear people say my dog is from show lines so I might breed from her/stand at stud. But as any racehorse breeder would confirm good blood lines are important but don't guarantee success. My dog's sire is widely considered the best ever example of the breed with a prodigious show win successes within the UK and abroad but his breeder said he's not quite good enough to win at the highest level which is why he sold him to me we're talking very minor fault but still faults. He's absolutely adorable and has an amazing temperament and a great sense of humour but personally even if I had the time and knowledge to breed which I don't I wouldn't because ultimately you should only breed from the best of the best.
The horse world is increasingly coming round to this way of thinking after decades of breeding anything to anything partly encouraged by rigorous breeding/performance testing in other countries and the demand for performance horses. The only way we will improve dog health/temperament is if we regulate dog breeding, stop breed for appearance and fashion and make health and temperament the number 1 priority and only breed from the finest examples of this. This may make dogs expensive to purchase but in comparison with the amount people cheerfully spend on cars which is a depreciating assets then its not a lot of money for a healthy loving companion who will hopefully bring you many years of pleasure.
Lastly education of Jo Public about where and how to buy a pedigree dog is essential.
Im not sure how you can regulate dog ownership and as someone who's worked in chid protection for many years suspect you cant. I genuinely don't see how licensing of dog ownership will make any difference or that compulsory training of dog owners is enforceable or workable. Ive been round animals all my life and have never attended a single dog class but currently have two well behaved dogs a friend see's a trainer for a her dog and its a delinquent.

I would rather get my pup from an environment that is conducive to being a well rounded pup bought you in the home.

Some breeders who are licensed raise their dogs outdoors, with none of the constant interaction that a puppy needs for the first few weeks/months of its life.

You can be licensed and still be a bad breeder. I have had a pup from a home where it's Mum was only bred that one time, completely health tested as was the sire and raised with love, affection and exorcised to all the things sun the hime that a growing puppy should be.

Imho a licensed breeder doesn't necessarily mean a happy puppy.

I think the 'good breeders', if they really care about the health of the animals, need to stop being so hard to find.

It seems like you need to go to shows and spend a lot of time hunting them down. Obviously people need to research and properly think about dog ownership, but accepting many don't or won't (as much as you disagree with that) is important.

Having an online presence and waiting lists could potentially attract people to them rather than the other dodgy breeders. Sites like Pets 4 Homes should be used as that's clearly where a lot of people first look.

We viewed several litters before settling on our pup. The difference in puppies reared outside and in a home was staggering tbh. Ours came in being totally fine with everything in the house. She was also ok in the car as the breeder had been taking them out for little trips to get them used to it. It makes so much difference.

I agree with Newpeep educate the buyers. If the demand was higher for health tested dogs and dogs breed correctly the breeders would have to do this.

In my personal life my colleagues will always buy from health tested and well breed dogs. They hare happy to wait if necessary.

In my life working with the general population they are not happy to wait or do any research and have many heartbreaking outcomes. Either getting rescues from abroad or rushing to get the puppy without doing any research.

People spend more time researching a mobile phone than researching getting a puppy.

Like @Darklane I have a vulnerable native breed, who came from a genuine home environment by a breed enthusiast who has never had more than 2 litters per bitch (only breeds when she wants a puppy herself, and has never had to advertise a litter), with ongoing support ("this puppy will never live with anyone other than you or me") including boarding her when we go on holiday

These are the sort of people who should be encouraged, but I don't quite see how. She's just not interested in breeding as an income stream, rather her 'line' has excellent temperaments and she just wants to keep it going. She doesn't really care if she makes a profit, and as KC registered, she puts a block on breeding (ie litters cannot be registered) which she only lifts if she's happy a proposed mating is suitable, because she really is concerned for 'her' progeny's well-being.

Gone off on a bit of a tangent but People dont ask breeders enough questions.

Shit breeders are allowed to get away with being shit breeders as new owners just dont seem to care.

Good breeders should be doing some form of ens or esi - people dont ask if they have.

Good breeders will be taking dogs out in the car

8 week old puppies should be toilet trained and know to go to an specific area when they have left the breeder

The breeder should have encouraged very short periods with the puppies on their own before they leave the puppy bundle.

The breeder should get the puppies used to different noises from birth

The breeder should get the puppies used to different surfaces as soon as they can move

The breeder should introduce different smells to the puppies from birth

The breeder should be happy for you to speak to owners of other puppies they have bred.

The breeder should always have a clause that they will take the puppy back

The breeder should have introduced the puppies to many different people before they leave them hopefully on week 5 when they are particularly social to people.

I would want to see the socialisation plan for the puppies and each individual comments.

So many more questions that need to be asked before I would even look at the puppies.

Well for a start, a lot of people don't want to pay the price for a well breed dog.

They want one, but not the price. So they go elsewhere to someone who will tell them it's well breed.

This is what I've seen within the specific breed I have. The good breeders are getting left with litters because shit breeders are selling cheaper.

And sadly the good breeders who are checking their puppies aren't going for breeding etc, but can't stop the flow of people getting dogs off the shit breeders and then having a litter to two themselves with no clue.

That’s how we ended up with our pup. Her breeder doesn’t normally advertise but her waiting list went elsewhere due to the boom in post Covid breeding and the fact her dogs are more expensive as they’re had a lot more care taken. She had a few pups available which she said has never happened before.

we found her through the KC. We had to travel.

I have had many dogs through my agility classes whose owners have no idea whether they are working or show type, let alone had any health tests on the parents. I know by experience but most owners are totally unaware the importance of solid breeding.

wetotter might we have the same breed of hound - webbed paws? taps huge nose

I know a couple of conscientious breeders who are absolutely devoted to the health and welfare of their dogs, do all the tests, keep waiting lists and have a litter maybe once a year, usually less often. They say that current legislation, while well intentioned, makes it harder for a genuine enthusiast - eg, you aren't allowed to have more than (I think?) 4 breeding dogs on the premises, so these good breeders have to decide between an older retired bitch who's had her two litters yet is part of their family, or keeping a puppy for the future. Obviously, that doesn't deter the sort of arseholes who either dump their exhausted bitches on the nearest rescue (or worse) while keeping a shed-full and claiming these four dogs belong to their mum, and these four are their sister's, and these four are just staying, etc, etc

We recently rehomed a puppy that had been seized from an unlicensed puppy farm (I mean ffs, as if a puppy farm should ever be licensed...) and the rescue told us they've never been more overwhelmed by unwanted dogs, more angry at the utter shittiness of some human beings, or more despairing that people still don't seem to be getting the message about the misery of puppy farms. I don't know what the answer is. I wish I had a magic wand.

I agree with Newpeep educate the buyers. If the demand was higher for health tested dogs and dogs breed correctly the breeders would have to do this.

I do agree with this to a large extent, but so many otherwise sensible people seem utterly blind to the puppy farming issue when faced with a pretty website, a breeder/salesman who knows the right things to show them, and the possibility of a puppy by the weekend.

The other issue, of course, is that good breeders would never sell to so many of the people who want puppies, so they are still going to have to go to the bad breeders.

I have shown for decades, bred a few litters, but along with many others in my main breed don't really have much interest in continuing at the moment. Different reasons for everyone, of course. For me, the pandemic taught me that it was actually quite pleasant not driving round the UK every weekend, and time at home was very pleasant.

For others, the well-intentioned but frankly ridiculous legislation around licensing makes it all too hard. (Inconsistently applied, so no-one knows where they stand, let alone the fact that actually most licensed breeders are/were the ones you shouldn't touch with a bargepole!) Everything that is brought in seems to play in to the hands of puppy farmers, and away from the long-term family breeders who rear puppies beautifully and are very choosy about where they go.

I bought a new breed for the first time last year as a pet, and have a young bitch here of a breed that is very low in numbers. Her mother had CCs in to double figures, she is beautifully bred, healthy with a lovely temperament. I probably should have a litter or two from her, really, but I can't raise the interest and have booked her in to be spayed in April.

Controversial but...

Let Mutts breed. Half the problem is a shortage of other puppies available.

If you want a dog or puppy now, there isn't a choice between a cheap ish rescue/accidental Mutt or an expensive well bred dog. There's a choice between and expensive puppy farmed cross, or an ultra expensive and rare reputable breeder.

I want a mutt. An old fashioned, Heinz, long lived mutt.

We don't have the UK dog population any more to create bog-standard healthy mutts, I don't think - or not in the ownership of people who would want to have them. Those in standard pet homes are neutuered, and anyone who might want to have a litter has an eye to the fancy names and high prices.

And interestingly, those 'rare and reputable breeders' selling pedigree dogs are often much cheaper than those selling the expensive cross-breeds.

I know. I think it's just an unpredicted consequence of a responsible policy.

I want a mutt. An old fashioned, Heinz, long lived mutt.

I think the days of genuine mutts are long gone now that the vast majority of responsible owners neuter their dogs.

I also think we're a lot more clued up about things like breed traits, exercise requirements and costs - obviously not in all cases, but in general people are more aware of what dogs need and won't pick breeds that are completely unsuitable for their lifestyles.

I also wonder - for every mutt that was healthy and happy and a great pet, how many were tied up in gardens 24/7 because they were destructive indoors due to lack of exercise and stimulation? Even when I was a child (nineties) I remember dogs left in gardens because people couldn't give them what they needed.

You really have 3 cateories when it comes to dog breeding.

1. puppy farming - its self explanatory.

2 ) breeding for show / certain sports- these dogs are selected for traits or looks A successful show dog can make an unsuitable pet for a first time owner as it needs a strong outgoing personality. Then there is the measure against a standard that encourages unhealthy deformation ...

3. is the opportunists who for money or experience want to have a litter from their bitch.

I think with research and knowledge, you can get a good, well bred puppy from 2 & 3. However, you'll have to look at the breeders motivation and their relationship with their dogs plus all the helth tests and COI for the dogs.