6 month old reactive puppy - am I being unrealistic?

[toburbornottoburb]

Hi there!

Almost 4 months ago we brought home our first dog - a 4 month old Australian Shepherd.

My partner and I love dogs - our families have had working dogs all our lives (albeit gun breeds - spaniels and not herding breeds) and we have always wanted a dog of our own but didn't have the space nor time to dedicate until recently.

We chose an AS predominantly because my partner wanted one - he wanted a dog which he could take on runs (he was hoping to do canicross) and do agility. I wanted a dog who could transition easily into being a family dog but who would be up for our long walks we do. I love spaniels, but their prey drive can be insane so was quite easily persuaded after we did research and spoke to breeders and AS owners.

We picked her up at 16 weeks due to various reasons and had made arrangements with the breeder to ensure she was getting enough socialisation which wasn't an issue as the breeder was also keeping her littermate and was going through the process anyway.

However, once we got her back we noticed she was incredibly nervous around people and other dogs. Asked the breeder if anything could have happened - answer was no, not that she could think of. Fine. We got right on training and started slow steps to build her confidence using the r+ techniques and seemed to be making some progress.

Then it all started going downhill...it started off by her becoming incredibly reactive to our neighbours (barking and lunging) when we were all out the front and then she started becoming lead reactive to other people and dogs walking down the street (previously this was fine and she ignored them). It then progressed to a point where we couldn't walk her in parks or woods as she couldn't handle seeing other dogs or people out and about.

This behaviour is completely new territory to us as dog owners, so we have been working with a clinical behaviourist to counter condition for the last month. The issue is, we don't seem to be making any progress. I'm trying to trust the process, but finding it harder as time goes on. My partner is far more optimistic but we are butting heads on it quite often.

We provide enrichment to help mitigate the fact she isn't getting as much exercise as she should - free work, trick training and games to mentally stimulate her. Plus we have started renting a field 30 mins away once a week where she can run trigger free and off lead, but this really isn't enough for her and she is constantly looking for something to "do" as we're just not meeting her needs. She is interestingly much better when walking with other dogs and people she knows - my parents' dog, SIL's dog etc. We comment how she might have been fine had she gone to a multi-dog household who already had a mature responsible dog whom she could look up to.

Our eventual hope is that we will be able to have a dog we can take to the pub, away on walking breaks with us and who can meet our friends and family members (in a quiet controlled way) for the next 10-15 years...but now I'm not sure this is realistic. This is stressful for us, but I can't even imagine how stressful it is for her and I'm worried our sub urban environment just isn't suitable.

I guess what I'm looking for is to understand if anyone has been through anything similar...and what was the ultimate outcome?

Apologies for the short novel. Thanks for reading my huge vent!

Sorry just realised there's a typo - we've had her going on 3 months, not 4!

Also forgot to say - we had her checked out by the vet (a stressful ordeal) and seemingly no issues.

Australian shepherds are hard work dogs - like many herding breeds.

I think the expectations that an Australia shepherd would make an easy family dog is unrealistic. They are like collies dogs with a big brain that if not worked will worry and go self employed. Not a dog for the faint hearted.

I am sorry you are having to deal with this. Owners of reactive dogs have all my empathy and respect. It can be along and lonely road.

Being realistic you will never have a calm chilled bomb proof dog. You may have a dog that can tolerate some interaction but also need to aware that this is not a given.

This sounds already very severe for a 6 month old dog and I’d be sceptical at the breeders claim that nothing happened in her care of this dog, there’s a huge socialisation window that your dog was there for.
I think first step is get a behaviourist (not a trainer) involved ASAP. It should have happened when the reactivity started but that’s a missed window so the sooner the better, this is still a young dog so I’d be hopeful that good interventions could be very helpful.
However with a reactive dog I think you need to be realistic especially if it reacts to people that pubs etc could never work.

I’m sorry but I think you needed that dog from 8 weeks old so you could socialise them.
Couid your DH run with the dog on a waist belt when in the hired field and build up to running in other places?
If the dog is focussed on running with the ‘pack’ they could be less likely to be reactive.
Agree with pp, this is a breed which needs a job, needs to be busy, stimulated and exercised a lot.
I hope things work out.

OP states they’ve got a clinical behaviourist on board.

Woops my bad I read it like two times to check and managed to miss it.

I dont think it would have made much difference if you had the dog from 8 weeks.

Most reactivity at this age would have been due to genetics and not socialising.

You cant run with a 16 week old puppy!

Thinking about this more I would speak to your clinical behaviourist and say everything you have said in your post. They are on the ground and they will be able to see if they think things will change. Ask if your expectations are realistic also ask how much experience they have of herding breeds.

You will never out exercise an Australian shepherd so do work on calm and chilling more than trying to tire them out - because you wont ever tire them out. Looking for something to do is common of all herdy dogs and not really a sign that you are not giving her enough to do - very common and normal aussie/ collie behaviour.

You also have to be realistic that things may not change as much as you want them to - is this something you can live with long term?

Things may get a bit better and in experienced Australian shepherd owners hands they dog may find life easier.

Am I right that the dog is now 8 months old? Between 4 and 8 months they really get their herding instinct so it may be that this is just over enthusiastic herding and you will need someone experienced in herding dogs to help.

My Romanian rescue sadly just passed away very unexpectedly. He was highly territorially aggressive, to the point we couldn't have anyone in the house he didn't trust (probably about 15 people, mostly family members, a few friends he'd met when he was a young puppy and his dog school handlers). We also got him once the socialisation period had ended (at around 19 weeks). He was also some sort of herding dog / mountain dog.

We did everything to try and work on his triggers with various behaviourists, although they all told us that it would be unlikely we could eradicate those behaviours entirely. For us, it became more of a management of his issues. For instance, his territory extended to a relatively wide radius outside of our flat, but he was perfectly behaved when we took him to a park by car, to the extent that he was happy off lead, perfectly trusted and with great recall.

We also noticed he was a lot worse when he had pent up energy (e.g., he hadn't been walked or our upstairs neighbours had been particularly stampy dicks, as was their wont) or if his needs weren't met (e.g., if he needed to go to the toilet or was hungry). If none of that was the case, we'd usually be able to walk him with little issue in his radius, except if he saw a number of enemy people or dogs, so it was always constant vigilance and trying to cross the road before he could spot them.

With yours (and I know it's a pain) could you not walk her really really early in the morning when there's unlikely to be anyone around, so she builds up her confidence going out of your house and in your area and give her a massive walk to tire her out? It'll also be less stressful to you until you clock exactly what it is that riles her (is it worse with specific people, or specific dogs)? You'll also get really good at reading her body language - it's so subtle but a slight stiffening of the body, ears dropping back and a low slow tail wag. That's always a sign to change course or distract before things escalate out of control.

Although good outside his territory, ours was also a bit nervy with strangers randomly trying to stroke him without warning - e.g., he's be absolutely fine in the pub 9/10 times but a random drunken stranger would occasionally set him off. We coped with that by getting him a 'nervous - please do not pet me' yellow vest, and we muzzle trained him. I was worried that wearing a muzzle would make everyone think he was a horrible dog, but our behaviourist explained that actually it does make people give nervous dogs more space, which makes them calmer.

He also always wore an adaptil collar and took fluxotine. People are sceptical about both of those, but there was a noticeable difference in his base state when he wasn't on them for whatever reason.

Good luck - as a PP said, a reactive dog can be really stressful and lonely, and it's unlikely they'll ever be "perfect" in the traditional sense. But it's so rewarding when you do manage a breakthrough. I miss mine every minute of every day :(.

@ShouldIknowthisalready puppy is 6 months old and can begin to run. Would be being trained to herd as a working dog

I would say that this is her true character revealing itself now and it is much more to do with her genetics than experiences; ie nature rather than nurture.
I would say it is unlikely that you will have the dog you envisaged, although ongoing intensive work with the behaviourist will help you to manage her.
Ime as a vet, Australian shepherds and, even more so, Australian cattle dogs are often very tricky.

Honestly, I think you need to be realistic about the future here.

Unfortunately (for whatever reason) you have a severely reactive dog on your hands, which means she may never be happy around strangers - and I doubt she'll ever be happy in a busy indoor environment like a pub.

You also have a very intense working breed on your hands - even without the behavioural issues, she was never going to be an easy dog. Herding breeds need a ton of mental and physical stimulation and they absolutely need a job to do, and IME you can rarely provide that in an urban environment without spending a good amount of time at classes etc.

As it stands, your dog may need medication and lifelong environmental management in order to live anywhere close to a normal life. It's good you have a behaviourist but a vet may be able to work alongside you both as well.

Long-term, I think you and DP need to sit down and have a serious conversation about whether you can live with this kind of behaviour for the next 10-15 years. Any kind of reactivity is horrible but what you're describing is pretty severe and speaking from experience, having a reactive dog is not easy at the best of times.

Thank you all for your lovely suggestions and advice, and for reading through my ridiculously long post - @Lastqueenofscotland2 very easy to miss bits in the wall of text!

I just wanted to say, we do love her to pieces - she is the snuggliest most loving thing with us and our close family who she knows well (when she's not in work mode!). I just struggle to shake the feeling she might be happier in a quieter environment with other dogs, and ultimately, we want what is best for her. We are prepared to put all the work in and have considered potentially moving, but it's just not an option for us right now and we would be far from family and our support network, which might make life even trickier.

@whataboutsecondbreakfast I agree with you a serious conversation needs to be had. My DP feels that with the right training all of this will just "go away". I feel like this is a totally unrealistic expectation and so far this thread has confirmed this.

@villainousbroodmare That's really helpful insight, thank you. Interestingly, all the ones we know are lovely, but yes, a lot of work, which we (at least thought) we were prepared for. We were just not prepared to be unable to fulfil her needs in the way we expected...if that makes sense.

@schnowball I'm so sorry for your loss, losing a pet is heartbreaking. It sounds like you provided an amazing loving home for him. Thank you for the advice - it is really is helpful hearing from others who have been through it. It's similar re walking - we also see her calm down a bit once she is used to the environment, but any slight change triggers her. Probably shepherd instinct. We have a yellow dog vest for her and are working on muzzle training...she's incredibly wary of it, which is understandable.

@ShouldIknowthisalready Thanks for your advice - our behaviourist mentioned helping her to learn how to settle too as it's likely she will always want to be "on". We did so much research but perhaps not enough - potentially overly focussed on positive stories. She's nearly 7 months old now, sorry that might not have been clear.

I have had 2 reactive dogs. My youngest dog is nearly 2. At around 6 months he went through a " fear" stage. He started being reactive to other people and dogs, quite " barky" and lungy. He, though, was a frustrated greeter. He wanted everyone to pet him/ love him. I worked with him with HV treats and encouraged him to " walk on" and praised him for doing it.
My older boy ( 4), lost his social skills during Lockdown as we weren't allowed to be near people. He got very reactive particularly to dogs, although he loves people. I started with him ( summer) and sat with him to observe his surroundings on a lead, nice and far away from other dogs, and used a clicker and treat method. If he looked at the other dog and then looked at me " click and treat". I kept moving slightly closer each time. I did this maybe 4/5 times a day. If he started reacting, I'd take him further away and rinse, repeat, using " Let's go" or " walk on". It took time and patience, and he walks past most dogs without a murmur, unless he meets another reactive dog who barks at him. 🤦‍♀️.
My old lurcher girl is completely bomb proof, and ignores everything.

Is it reactivity or are they just a frustrated greeter? I’d be surprised at a 6 month pup being truly reactive, especially a herding type. They tend just to be idiots (I teach an Aussie agility).

Dogs can absolutely be reactive at six months.

I’ve had numerous reactive dogs, some from puppies (all rescues- none from a breeder thankfully) as I used to foster for a breed specific rescue.

All of them have improved to some degree…however not one of them was able to be transformed into the perfect pub dog. With adjusted expectations they all did well, within their own comfort zones.

My current (and last rescue) girl is lovely and is at the point she will walk past anything and anyone without a reaction as well as be polite when off lead to other dogs…but she wouldn’t cope as a pub dog and I have had to accept that. She does sometimes get left behind because a situation would be too much and that’s not the end of the world. I’ve managed to compete in competitive agility and obedience with her and with a breed like an aus it should be possible.

It’s hard when a dog just doesn’t fit your expectations but don’t forget they have no expectations for themselves. She doesn’t know shes meant to be out on a day out, if she’s happier at home there’s nothing necessarily wrong with that.

Of course they can be - my last rescue came to us at that age and was fear aggressive towards people. But she’d been through stuff. This is a dog from presumably decent breeders who has had a good start. Not impossible but more likely to be frustrated greeter type behaviour on paper (of course not observing the dog means it’s just theory).

Not all breeder are good breeders, sadly. She could easily be lying when she says she can't think of a reason for the dog to be reactive.

I read lots of threads on here where people leap to the dog "just" being a frustrated greeter - but lots of dogs do have bad experiences when they're young - and unfortunately that can lead them to become reactive. My own dog became reactive from a very young age after two off-lead dogs ran up to him, pinned him down and attacked him. It happens even when the owner does everything "right".

It could also be the case that the dog is badly bred. We don't know.

Sorry but my (bitter) experience is that you can't 'fix' a reactive dog, all you can do is manage it. Forever.

Oh I could have written this! We have a gsd, 6 month old and it was my dp who wanted one...I was actually scared of them but after much research and talking to others who have them, we decided to get one. She's an absolute dream in the house, such a gorgeous dog but is now lead reactive! She was perfect for the first 4 months and i trained her the basics and good recall but she was then lunged at by 2 big dogs whos owner then thought it would be a good idea to let them off lead and telling me they were friendly, but even so they scared my little pup to death and since then become lead reactive and it forst started by her hiding behind me when seeing another dog and letting out a little bark to then a full bark but we have now just started training with an ex police dog handler and hoping this can help with lead reactivity. She's fine when off lead with dogs and people she knows (on a big open field, shes never off lead in streets) but back on the lead she'll bark and lunge, even at the dogs she knows. I hate the feeling of other people thinking she's horrible because realistically that's how it looks...I certainly wouldn't like a big dog barking and lunging at me snd it's something I won't put up with. I've been in tears over it because I don't want to be seen as the irresponsible owner. Our trainer has reassured us that this is not at all aggression and is puppy fear and apparently lots of puppies can go through this stage especially shepherd's. People keep telling me keep going don't give up and you'll have a brilliant dog at the end of it but if you don't do it right woth the right training you'll end up with a nightmare and that comment has stuck so I threw myself into training. I'd recommend finding a decent training who has experience with these breeds and stick to it. Don't let it get worse, nip it in the bud while he's still young. Good luck and don't give up!

@Miracle29 my gs was bitten by an Akita at 4 months old, he absolutely squealed and ran off in terror. He became what I thought was a frustrated greeter and would bark/lunge at some dogs.
I did the usual, distracted with treats, got him focused on me etc.
He’s 16 months now and very rarely barks at another dog even when they bark at him. He tends to ignore the little dogs, confident they are no threat, but will bark if a big dog barks at him. I think probably because he’s less confident.
I hope your young dog grows through this with your help.

I would be fairly pessimistic about a 'cure'. In my experience both professional and as an owner of a reactive dog I would say although improvement is certainly a possibility, management is generally what you are looking at.

Oh no thats awful. My older dog was attacked when she was a pup too, its awful and does have an impact them. My gs is very food oriented and will do anything I ask when there's no dogs around but the minute she sees another dog the treats go out the window she'll just keep barking. The trainer we are with now told me to try stop it before she barks, so the minute she stares at a dog give her a very slight tug and say no and continue to walk and only reward when she stops looking and looks at me. We bumped into someone with a big husky today and all was going well until the husky walking past barked and lunged and off course my pup had to have her say too but she wasn't as bad as she was previously because normally she would lunge. I get nervous about walking her at times, mainly because I don't know what dogs I'll come across. There's a few small dogs in my area who are very reactive on walks and hates people and dogs and people in the street will still stop to say awww how sweet but when it's a big dog you get the head shakes, eye rolls etc and it's awful. When out on walks with My other big dog it's a different story people love her and stop to stroke her. I've never had a reactive dog before so it's all new but hoping this training will work.

Im sorry your having these issues, it’s tough.

Our dog was reactive from 12 weeks, super anxious. Taking her anywhere was rough, we lived in a city and she would bark at anyone who stopped to talk to us. Anyone that came in the house would get barked at, I had to take her into the bathroom where she continued to bark. She was very anxious and resource guarded many things.

We tried but when she snapped at our son for doing nothing more than running past her, we knew we needed to rehome her. She lives by the coast with a retired couple now, it’s quiet and calm, that said she is still reactive!

To be honest I don’t think you have a “pub dog”, I’m not sure you will ever get that from her.

Many months later we got another dog, a different breed, I had the pick or 3 puppies and I did a few basic behavioural tests on them. These tests aren’t guaranteed to get you the perfect dog but they really did help.

Our new puppy isn’t perfect, but his nature is confident and social, so everything is easier.

keep doing what you doing and see if you see any improvements a few months down the line. If you don’t, decide if owning a dog like her is right for you, and for her. If it’s not, find her a home in quieter surroundings.