Biting when removed from exciting situations

[Uncertain111]

My 4.5month mini poodle seemed to have toned down mouthiness but this last couple days has really pressed down hard when biting my hand when removing her from

• under the sofa where she was biting a hole in the sofa (after saying no twice or 3 times)
• picking up when she managed to get hold of daughter’s blazer and thought it would be her new bite toy
• picking up for going to bed (in open crate in closed play pen) last night - she’s crate trained and loves her crate

she is walked in exciting woods at least once a day off lead, is friendly with people and dogs, well socialised and fed and we do brain games (sniffy games) and tug daily. She is left once a day at one or two intervals never more than 3h in one day.

Just concerned this biting hard on me in protest is a bad sign for the future. Never broken skin or bruised but still a bit out of order!

Advice/perspectives sought please

Oh and we do generally practice safe swaps with food in exchange for items pinched that she shouldn’t have, rather than forcibly removing them so it’s not because we’ve been forcibly removing things from her

She's telling you loud and clear that she doesn't like being picked up.

You need to call her away from situations and reward her for coming to you, not forcibly pick her up and move her. After all, if she was a bigger breed, you wouldn't have that option.

If she doesn't have reliable recall then use a house line and give it a gentle tug to encourage her away from wherever she shouldn't be and again, reward when she comes to you.

Thank you for your advice. She has reliable recall unless the alternative is too tempting eg the blazer to pull, the sofa to shred. Perhaps at 4.5 months it’s not realistic to expect her to be so well trained to leave the tempting items alone and not wreck them eg the sofa. I more wondered if the biting in protest of being removed is a concern, or normal. There are occasions when I have to forcibly remove her eg in the road when crossing and she sits down. Tugging the lead doesn’t work so I have no choice in that scenario other than to not cross roads with her. It’s also conflicting advice with the advice I have received to avoid pulling her forcibly on lead.

Thank you though, I suppose your response has helped me to reformulate my question to this: when the owner has no option other than to pick puppy up to remove from a destructive or dangerous situation, is it a red flag if the puppy bites quite hard out of protest? (Age 4.5 months)

Thanks again

Also sometimes the rewards are less tempting than the forbidden item - even cheese!! Maybe I need to get some hotdog instead... apparently they cannot resist it

when the owner has no option other than to pick puppy up to remove from a destructive or dangerous situation, is it a red flag if the puppy bites quite hard out of protest? (Age 4.5 months)

I would argue that there is always an alternative to picking up the puppy. So use treats in all the situations you have discussed. Even sitting down in the middle of the road use the best treats to lure your dog forward.

In itself biting when being picked up is not a red flag behaviour BUT it is behaviour you want to avoid as they will continue to do it as they get bigger if it works for them.

Prevention is a good approach so y es do remove things she can grab eg blazers. Keep the door shut to the sofa room until she has lost interest in going under it etc.

Always food swap every single time, have treats on you for all occasions.

Get in a 121 trainer for a session who can show you drop and leave it commands and how to sensitise your dog to like being picked up

'She has reliable recall unless the alternative is too tempting'- then she does not have reliable recall.

She is very very young so you need loads more patience.

I would go try touch training to come back to your hand.

House line/ long line on all the time.

Treats for focus and always on walks.

Do not pick up.

I think your life would be much better if you got her walking forward reliably and if thats pleasurable you can do it more to offset energy/ frustration.

Good luck, I love poodles! They are so smart and once you find the connection she will be brilliant.

Perhaps at 4.5 months it’s not realistic to expect her to be so well trained to leave the tempting items alone and not wreck them eg the sofa.

She's far, far too young for that. She's still a baby. Most dogs will steal things up until at least two years of age and many will even do it forever - especially if owners don't manage their environment correctly or accidentally reward the behaviour.

It’s also conflicting advice with the advice I have received to avoid pulling her forcibly on lead.

I didn't say to forcibly tug or pull her lead, though. I said to use a house line and give it a gentle tug - this should mean she's distracted and comes towards you instead, and then you can remove the object safely.

when the owner has no option other than to pick puppy up to remove from a destructive or dangerous situation, is it a red flag if the puppy bites quite hard out of protest? (Age 4.5 months)

There's always another option. What would you do if she was a St Bernard, for example? You'd not be able to lift her so you'd need to think of other ways to encourage her to move - high value treats, a ball, a tug you, a squeaky toy etc.

Thank you all for your messages. That’s given me loads of food for thought and lots of things to try.

Agree with pps to stop picking her up. She’s biting harder because her more subtle signals (stiffness, whale eye, lip licking) and previous attempts at biting which were less forceful, haven’t worked. Effectively she’s been forced into biting, as her last line of communicating how much she hates it.

Make the alternative to what your distracting her from so amazingly tempting she can’t possibly resist (roast chicken, Arden Grange Liver Paste, a handful of hotdog pieces scattered across in front of her) or get her keyed into a particular toy that she will reliably respond to, one with a really good squeak if possible and then keep that toy as an A grade reward, instead of letting her have free play with it.

We have our first toy breed after a lifetime of large dogs and it’s been a real learning curve. I am determined mine will not be a ‘handbag/carried everywhere’ dog, but I was surprised to find you do instinctively go to pick them up a lot and have to remind yourself not to. What may be useful is looking up Kikopup’s YouTube video on training small dogs to enjoy being picked up. That way, when you really do need to do it in an emergency you will have the option without it upsetting or scaring her.

As for getting her off things she shouldn’t have. Rather than focussing on removing her physically, I would train really strong, reliable leave and drop it cues, so that they become instant and instinctive to her. I tend to think, if you can train a dog drop things, leave things, come back when called, instant down, settle and walk with you on a loose lead (not necessarily a perfect heel, just nicely next to you without pulling or dragging) you have the ability to navigate most worrying/difficult situations safely and effectively. So these are the things I focus on first with all my pups. (For recall we whistle train and you can then use that to call them off things they are getting into but shouldn’t from a distance.) For me, sensible but reliable basic control, while still allowing the dog the freedom to make choices is the basis of a good relationship and helps to build a strong bond and relationship.

To be fair she loves being picked up. We have no issue with that. It’s just when it involves removal of a fun thing(dangerous or inappropriate) that she has bitten. And when I say bitten there was no growling or skin broken. Just protest biting.

There were no subtle signals first as it was immediate (she was picked up immediately when she grabbed the blazer). Perhaps being picked up surprised her and I could’ve tried with a high value treat first but I am finding even that fails with her, unless she’s extremely hungry.

Thank you, I see what you mean about it being instinctive to pick up toy breeds compared to larger ones. I appreciate with bigger ones there would not be that option

If she's biting you, she doesn't like being picked up. She may tolerate it when she can see it's coming, but the vast, vast majority of dogs do not like being picked up and/or carried.

Small dogs are often tolerate it because it's convenient and easy for owners to do it.

What makes you think it's something she actively likes, out or curiosity?

You've had good advice. Most useful is to imagine your small dog was a much bigger one so that picks up or physical 'force' (gently and kindly meant) is not an option to you.

Instead, you must use your wits and other tools. They involve treats and practicing recall when it's not needed. Plus practising swapping something valuable with the dog then giving it back, as a game in which rewards are feely available. So that if you ever need to remove something dangerous, the dog has good history of knowing that swaps tend to pay off.

And choosing your battles. If crossing the street is an issue right now, it is ok to cross them less for a while. Or choose quiet streets where it is less of an issue if she sits down and won't move.

Oh and if a treat doesn't work, it's not high value enough.

Not all dogs value treats so you could use prime steak and they wouldn't care, but all dogs have a "thing" - balls, squeaky toys, tug ropes, a stuffed animal, a blanket, a rabbit fur toy etc.

It's just a matter of finding your dogs' thing and using it to your advantage.

Thank you. So far I think it is food that is my dog’s ‘thing’. So at least I know what to focus on.

I also can appreciate what some of you are saying about how it’s much better not to use force. Sometimes when I have had no other option I pick her up and put her in a time out for a minute or two as per the guidance from the easy peasy puppy squeezy book which is all about gentle reward based training.

I really do appreciate the advice, I just do feel some of it is unrealistic in some cases unless the owner has unlimited time to focus on pup eg. No schedule to keep, no job, no family etc. Perhaps that’s just because I’m in the thick of puppy training whilst generally busy, and instead it’s just a case of slowly but surely and with patience, around all the busy stuff.

We are practicing safe swaps with high value treats which does generally work. I didn’t try it in this scenario though (blazer).

Thanks again

If you are using easy peasy puppy squeezy look at the section on positive interrupter - this will help a lot in the situations you are discussing.

Also Nose target will help so carry on doing that, You can ask for a nose target and your dog will run to give it to you (if practiced enough) and will drop or leave the sofa etc.

Also positive association for being touched - help to change your pups reaction to being picked up

The problem with resorting to the "quick and easy option" of picking her up when she doesn't like it is that one day she'll get fed up of her warnings being ignored and she really will bite someone hard.

If that's you, you may be able to deal with it but if she turns and bites a child who's picked her up because mummy always does it, you'll have a major problem on your hands.

I know it's frustrating when you're in a rush, stressed or tired but if you put in the foundation work now, it'll make things ten times easier during adolescence and when she's an adult.

Thank you all so much, I really do appreciate you taking the time to provide this advice and I am re-reading all your replies as there’s so much in there that I can try, and ideas for new bits of training I hadn’t started yet or even heard of despite all the books and websites I’ve looked at!

I am a bit surprised at all the strong advice not to pick the dog up at all. I know so many families where the dog is picked up regularly by all family members and is a happy dog, I didn’t know it was so frowned upon.

The signs I interpreted as her liking being picked up include her licking me when I pick her up, and her making a contented sigh noise and snuggling in when I pick her up and she happens to be sleepy at the time. She is also quite a cuddly dog when in a more restful mood so I interpreted this as comfortable with contact etc.

off to Google touch training now...

Oh and the only other thing is currently I have to pick her up to put her in the car

I'm out the other side of this! My 10 month pup was a total nightmare for that at 4-5.5 months, all died down when her last puppy teeth fell out. She was mouthy but every time she put too much pressure on I'd say 'ow', remove hand/leg and then 'be upset' she'd then stop, we'd sit calmly for a minute and then either do something else (if she'd been at something that she wasn't allowed), or play the game again but lower intensity.

She had a real thing for removing shoelaces from shoes and ripping them up, but we were calm, told her 'no' firmly once, removed the shoe, put it away (behind a door) and then gave her something she could chew/rip to pieces.

It was just really hard work at that age! And I remember the old dogs did it when they were puppies as well - just really bloody irritating...
On a positive note, she was then much easier until about a month ago when she went full 'teenager mode' - we're just starting to see the other side of that now...
You have my sympathy - nothing to be done but to keep doing your best and hack through it

The reason it's frowned upon is because it's not training anything, it's just a quick, easy way out of a situation for the owner.

It's also not natural for dogs to be picked up and carried. and it can make them feel vulnerable and scared (as they're trapped) which is why they often snap and lash out from their owners arms.

You wouldn't be able to pick a larger breed up to get them out of trouble so you shouldn't do so with a smaller breed. They need to be trained just as much as a Rottweiler needs to be.

When picking up a puppy always tell them you are going to do so.

Dont scoop them up from behind when they can not see you.

So approach from the side calmly, say "lifting" (or what ever you want!) and calmly lift them up - reward them with a treat and then put them on the floor. As they learn that lifting means they will be picked up watch them, some times they may be totally happy to be picked up for a cuddle but it also gives them the choice to move away if they dont want to.

For some dogs this may be too much for them, so you would start with touching them and treating them as you are touching them, stop touching them and the treats stop.

Signs to look out for that a dog is unhappy is lip licking (IN context so not if they are anticpating a treat), whale eyes, turning their heads away, biting, yawning. ears back, tight closed mouth. The signs will be subtle to start with but if ignored will ramp up.

Thank you

Just been thinking. What if it’s a potentially difficult situation in your garden that you need to get them out of, and dog is excited about it, and even your stinkiest hot dog chunk doesn’t work? Pick up then? Or walk over, wave under nose and fingers crossed dog does whatever you want (ie stop digging, or leave dead bird, or calm down when entangled in all the washing she’s suddenly got big enough to jump and pull off washing line?) What if the treat doesn’t work? I’m serious as with every effort in the world a difficult scenario could arise that even the best hot dog doesn’t tempt them away from

If your dog has full solid recall you will always be able to get a recall no matter what. Thats what everyone aims for. In the end its not the sausage they are dog it for- its for you. You fade away the treats after a while once solid. Then it just does it.