Rom rescue owner posting again!

[fatherfurlong]

I posted the other day about my dog ‘going’ for my husband.
At the time of posting my head was all over the place so I just wanted to clarify as my post was misleading and update you to see if your advice might change.

Following vet visit we were given Nutracalm tablets. This complements the Adaptil collar & diffuser we have already. She did offer to put in the chemical implant but warned us that his behaviour could get worse & we would just have to wait for the effect to wear off as to remove it again would not be easy so we decided against it. We were advised not to castrate him but opinions vary and if I thought it would improve things I would do it pronto.

What I said about him going into full aggressive mode when my husband walks in is not true. What happens is when he is sitting with me in any room if he hears my husband approaching he will growl but will then stop if my husband just goes to sit down or get something he wants. The problem arises if he tries to show the dog affection by stroking him or patting him. My husband does it to try and reassure him, the dog obviously is uncomfortable and warns him off by reacting BUT if you have a dog it is natural to want to show them affection and you don’t want to worry about the reaction.
It also means that despite not booking any holidays for a year to settle him in I would now not want to leave him with my husband- unfair to expect him to do it and kennels would not be a good environment for a nervous dog- goodness knows how his behaviour would be on my return. To not have a break for the next 10 years is a big ask & would mean that my disabled daughter would not get one either.

Such a dilemma because in so many respects he is great, not a chewer, not destructive, good with our cat and bird, gets on with most dogs, enjoys playing but very wary of people and being a first time owner I feel I have exhausted my resourcefulness and can’t move him on from how he is now.

You need a behaviourist. If he's a rescue and this behaviour is limited to men, then it sounds like the dog has had bad experiences of men. You need someone with experience to view the behaviour and help you find strategies to correct it.

Also, many good kennels will help you to train a nervous dog into stays. My local kennels does this, starting with walk-arounds and plays, moving up to an hour stay in a kennel and a play, a few hours (and a play... you get the idea?), a day, and overnight, then a weekend. They also have their own behaviouralist on call for dogs that have difficulty settling in. If the dog associates the kennels with fun and games (and treats, often treats!) they will almost always settle. A good kennels thrives on being a second home and knowing how to handle dogs og all temperaments.

How long has it been?

Generally, your DH should be ignoring the dog, but dropping a small treat near him as he passes. That teaches the dog to associate him with good things. DH should be waiting for the dog to approach him for affection, not insisting. It could take a while to reverse his anxiety about your husband.

Where are you getting advice on managing it? The rescue should have links to a behaviourist.

In your previous thread you said the dog growled at your disabled DD is that still happening?
If this dog is not giving you or your family much enjoyment rehome it though the rescue organisation you got it from. Of course you want to go on holiday and your husband wants to be able to show the dog affection and enjoy him and your DD want and needs to feel and be safe in her own home.
I know this is contrary to what many say on here but its a dog not a human being it doesn't have the sane rights as your family, they have to come before it, it's not working for all of you so needs to go.

Romanian dogs (or dogs rehomed from any country where they have previously been street dogs/strays) often have very specific issues, which aren't seen in UK rescue dogs. They often have a very difficult time living in a family home because of complex issues relating to their genetics, the mother's stress in pregnancy and their early experiences which you will need to understand and manage.

To give your dog a good quality of life, you need a qualified behaviourist to help you. You can search for one on the APBC (association of pet behaviour counsellors) or IMDT (institute of modern dog trainers) website.

My advice hasn't changed. You either need to hire a qualified behaviourist or re-home him to a household with a female owner and no children.

It's not fair on your husband or daughter to have to live like this.

I know it’s not “normal” dog behaviour, but, it’s not affection if it’s unwanted attention tbh. Your husband needs to leave him be.

longterm though, another - you need a behavioural or a trainer specialising in foreign rescues.

Please look at Dogs Point Of View website Meesh Masters.
she might be able to help you find a suitable behaviourist in your area.
I’ve got a Romanian rescue and they are very different to UK rescues.
please seek appropriate help from someone like Meesh 😊

www.thedogspointofview.com

@fatherfurlong I'm not sure how long you have had the dog but it does take time. It can take months. Your dog obviously has issues with your husband. Is it all men ? Has the dog growled at other men outside ? Or is it just inside the home this occurs. Avoid the triggers and
Seek a qualified behaviourist for advice.

We have seen a behaviourist and followed the advice he gave but it didn’t make the difference we had hoped. We went back to him with various issues and he said time would make the biggest difference but even so he was a very traumatised dog and would always carry issues that we could attempt to accommodate but he would never be completely at ease. And that sometimes you have to accept that your family circumstances are such that the dog may be better off somewhere else. He said we had made great progress but understands that sometimes you seem to plateau and the joy of owning a dog is exceeded by the problems you encounter on a daily basis.
I appreciated his honesty.
I have had the dog 15 months.

Ultimately it will be a decision I alone will make. I am sure that many behaviourists will make a huge difference for some dogs in some homes BUT it is not an exact science. Every circumstance and dog is unique and an even with a vast range of experience a behaviourist will not alter the course of events for some dogs. Sad but true. What I have learned is gleaning peoples opinions will often bamboozle you- you employ a behaviourist but they disagree with his/her assessment and say they were talking rubbish you need another behaviourist, another trainer, another diet. I think I mentioned that the problem arises if my husband tries to show the dog affection a casual ear rub or chest rub and someone said well why is he showing the dog affection when the dog clearly doesn’t want it? This is true & I see why the dog reacted in such a way but to have a dog that you hesitate to show affection to or avoid any tactile encounter is a very sad state of affairs. If you have a pet you want to pet it.

OP for everyone’s sake including the dog rehome him. Get a dog you can all enjoy including your husband and daughter, life is too short to own a pet that is not happily part of the whole family.
Get a behaviourist is rightly or wrongly the stock response to all dog issues on here but you’ve done that and obviously tried hard with this dog over the last 15 month (your right it’s not an exact science because you have an animal with a brain and emotions and God know what its inherited from its parents and what it experienced before you got it) and the dog is still growling at your disabled daughter and your husband is not getting any enjoyment out of it. Accept that the dog is not right for you and your family and rehome it hopefully by the organisation you got it through; they should take responsibility for it as they brought it into the UK in the first place.

I had a Romanian rescue; they are absolutely not dogs for first time owners and sounds like a negligent organisation tbh. For your first dog you need a puppy or a UK rescue with full support and a more accurate picture of the dog, which is just rare to get him out overseas rescues given they rarely actually live in family environments there even when rescued. Our dog came from a rescuers home but lived largely outside with over 10 dogs; behaviour in that environment is not comparable.

Absolutely your husband should not be approaching the dog. The dog is cheery uncomfortable, communicating that and repeatedly being ignored, which will increase its baseline stress level so that it is always operating from a place of stress as it cannot control it’s environment; whatever it does, the ‘danger’ still approaches. Yes that’s sad for your husband, but again why a foreign rescue is not a suitable first time dog. PP’s advice about dropping treats near the dog and otherwise ignoring it is right. And when the dog does eventually approach your husband, he should still do nothing for the first many times so as not to overwhelm it.

You need another behaviourist / more sessions with your old behaviourist and for your husband to leave the dog alone for the foreseeable (possibly largely forever) if you want to keep it. OR you need to rehome it, which isn’t necessarily neglectful or cruel. You’ve clearly tried really hard, given the dog a long time to settle and made great progress, which you should be proud of. It’s ok to say this isn’t the dog for you, and possibly better for the dog to be rehomed to a female only home. I absolutely wouldn’t rehome through the original rescue though; some are good but most are way more lax with who they rehome to than UK rescues and would quite possibly make another unsuitable match. A UK rescue will offer full training and make sure to find a suitable home without misrepresenting the dog’s issues.

Op I have seen way too many foreign rescues "go wrong" and a lot of very devastated owners.

You are correct, ask 100 people and you will get 100 different ways to solve the problem all from people that have not spent time in the problem like you have!

Trust Your gut instinct - you are with the dog 24/7. You will be correct and do not let anyone tell you otherwise.

I have seen some amazing people try to help these dogs and sometimes it is not possible.

This is not your problem or anything that you have done wrong. It is the rescues fault without question. There are a lot of dodgy foreign rescues about.

for you

I don't usually comment on anything on Mumsnet, but as an owner of a Romanian rescue felt I had to. To be honest, I think it might be best to rehome the dog, given you have already had him for 15 months and worked with a behaviorist. I also understand your DH's frustration. However, I think his efforts to show affection to the dog are making things worse.

What happens when the dog is in the house alone with your husband? (I'm asking because judging by your description it sounds as though it may growl at him partly to "protect" you.)

One more thing: I find strange that the dog hasn't been castrated already. I'm in Northern Europe, not in the UK, so this might not apply, but usually responsible rescue organizations tend to sterilize or castrate all adults dogs before homing them and puppies have to be brought back for this later. This is not for behavioral reasons, but to keep them from having puppies and multiplying the amount of animals needing homes.

100% agree on the neutering front - really unusual the rescue hadn’t already done this (unless your dog was too young when you got him?) and it’s normally a requirement that you commit to neutering then when they’re old enough if that is the case. And I would expect that to calm down some of his behaviours too tbh, although I’d still think rehoming is probably best for the dog at this stage, hard as that will be for you.

The OP mentioned in her previous thread about this dog that it was growling at her disabled DD when she made involuntary movements. No one is going to convince me that this dog should not be rehomed to a more suitable environment. I said that the original rescue organisation should rehome it because they need to take responsibility for it they brought it into the UK they put it in an unsuitable home they should responsibly rehome it rather than expecting UK rescues who are bursting at the seems with problematic dogs to find it a new home.

In response to a couple of questions:-
Dog no longer growls at daughter.
Dog is OK with husband if I am not about. He will walk with him & husband can feed him he did react to husband removing his collar when I wasn't here.
The rescue have sent me surrender forms as I have let them know about the problems we are having. Intellectually I realise it is the right decision to surrender him but emotionally I haven't caught up. I have invested so much time & had a fair degree of success. Also the dog's biggest advocate is my daughter & she would be heartbroken.

I visit Romania and people really would have to see for themselves just what being a stray dog there involves. It’s awful and I don’t know how they can be domesticated after an experience like that. I could never trust one.

honestly, this is the time for thinking with your head and not with your heart.

You need to rehome this dog, I’m sorry. And I see what the PP is saying in making it the original rescue’s responsibility, but honestly I’m not convinced UK rescues are ‘bursting at the seams’ having tried desperately to rehome from one for a while now (the blue cross have 40 dogs NATIONALLY atm); I know they’ll have more who aren’t ready for rehoming but can’t say I’ve seen this long-predicted influx of abandoned lockdown dogs. However, the original rescue made a bad first match and didn’t neuter the dog; I wouldn’t trust them to not do the same again.

The Dogs Trust were saying on radio 4 tonight that lots of people are giving up their dogs (and cats) because they cant afford to keep them and that have a waiting list of take dogs waiting for foster homes etc.
And let's face it a large dog who doesn't like men or children who make involuntary movements is not going to be the easiest dog to find a suitable home for.

No, sadly not. I’m sure rescues will be getting a lot more animals coming their way over the next year, there’s no doubt about that sadly

It doesn’t sound like he is trying to protect you. It sounds like he is resource guarding you. Resource guarding can turn nasty very quickly and is a difficult problem to fix. I don’t say it lightly but I would rehome this dog. Start again with a UK rescue or a puppy.