Running out of options, not sure where else to turn

[SW5678]

Hello, in need of a bit of advice re our working cocker (neutered male). He is 4 years old and has always been a bit crazy (always thought it was the breed and never been an issue). We've spent thousands of pounds and hours training him but he's never been well behaved. On paper he has gold level KC obedience but in practice he doesnt do any of it! His recall is virtually non existent, he attacks other dogs if they come near him so we can't walk him off the lead but even on the lead he goes mad at them (never bitten but pins them down and barks at them) and he frequently attacks our second dog who is 2 and also a WCS (neutered male). After 2 years nearly of trying to improve their bond we feel like we are running out of options. Our younger dog has been bitten, is scared to walk past the older one (urinating when walking past) and when our older one attacks nothing will stop him. Pulling him away makes it worse, trying to shock him woth a loud noise doesn't work, treats don't work. We have a young baby and I'm becoming increasingly worried of an accident happening involving our older dog as he has snapped at me (warning growl) when I've tried to separate him from the younger dog or tried to take back an item he's stolen.

After speaking to multiple specialists they think he might have a neurological problem Inherent from his breeding (not registered breeder, found him on gumtree, we've since learnt our lesson and our second one was from a reputable breeder). The specialists think that this behaviour could get worse over time and we've been advised not to rehome him as he's an accident waiting to happen but to have him PTS. I'm absolutely devastated but at the same time I have no idea what to do or what to think. DH has taken it very badly and I feel so alone. As much as I adore my dog, my baby comes first and I feel like when the older dog is around there's always the possibility of an accident. Walks aren't fun family occasions because of the possibility he might attack another dog. I'm at my witts end and I don't know what to do!

I'm so sorry to read this. It must be devastating to live with, and such a hard situation.

It sounds like your older dog is having a significant effect on your household - you sound like you're waiting for a significant incident to occur and your other dog sounds miserable.

I would take the specialists' advice and PTS. You have done everything you can, and this is a decision that gets it right for everyone in your family, including your older dog.

My heart goes out to you.

I feel for you. Behavioural euthanasia is an acceptable option in these situations. We took on a lurcher when our absolutely bombproof , adorable lurcher was getting older. It was a total nightmare. Despite being experienced dog owners the younger dog attacked our older dog, my husband and my daughter. We tried all sorts of training but eventually had him PTS on the advice of several vets , including a close friend. It would have been irresponsible to rehome a dog with a bite risk. It was heart breaking as in many ways he was a loving dog, but something must have happened to him in his early life( we got him at 5 months) or a neurological issue. This might not be the only option for you but you are not a bad person for considering it .

I would have him pts he isn’t safe and there are worse than death when a dog is that unhappy

Assuming the specialists you've spoken to are veterinary behaviourists (i.e. qualified vets who've gone on to specialise in behaviour) then I would heed their advice.

If they are not, then I'd seek the advice of a vet. beh. first. Then you know you have gone to the top of the behaviourist food chain and got the most qualified advice before PTS.

e.g. www.behaviourvet.co.uk/

Hello! Thanks for replies. The opinions were from vets, behaviourists and from a rehoming charity. I'm so worried that if we go down the PTS route my husband will forever blame me for "killing the dog" as he put it. But I can't sit back and wait for an accident to happen

Look up Southend Dog Training. Not everyone agrees with their methods but they get fantastic results and 1.8M followers on Instagram seem to agree.

What is your husband doing to try and resolve the situation?
what is he comfortable with happening before he thinks there’s an issue?

Really recommend you speak to Carol Begg at Perthshire Gundog Rescue. They offer counselling and advice to gun dog breed owners who are experiencing issues. www.perthgundogrescue.com/

I was about to say the same. I don't know why people don't agree with their methods. They don't do anything cruel.

The main issue sounds like he does not get along with other dogs and is not suitable for a multi dog household. Sorry but no way would I get a dog PTS. What " specialists" have you spoke to ?
As for a possibility he " might" attack another dog keep him on a leash on walks. I would contact a rehoming centre and give him the chance to go to someone else. There is nothing wrong with a dog that does not like other dogs. Dogs do not need other doggie friends. As for a warning growl when you have taken something he's stole from him it depends on the situation. I would consider contacting rescues. There's a lot of bad trainers out there advising PTS look at Southend dog trainers they address it. It's not easy I accept that but a friend of mine took a dog in that was getting PTS and he's now a different dog in a 1 dog household.

I realise this is closing the stable door after the horse has bolted, but why did you get a second dog when you knew your first was dog reactive? That just sounds like a recipe for disaster. Some dogs really need to be the only dog in the household.

In these circumstances I wouldn't have the dog put to sleep. That is such a drastic solution and should be reserved for dangerous dogs IMO (or for medical reasons, of course). Your dog sounds highly anxious. Did you consult an accredited behaviourist? Also, which training techniques have you used so far?

They use aversive training methods. That is recognised as cruel by all dog organisations.

He even has videos of using slip leads incorrectly and they are unable to release when tightened.

Op Losing Lulu facebook page may help you. It is for people that are going through or have gone through a similar situation themselves.

None of us can give you specific advice but if you have had qualified behaviourist advice (qualified being either a vet behaviourist or trained to Msc standard as minimum) their advice would be advice I would consider. If I had issues I would go bcak to them and get clarification.

I'm so worried that if we go down the PTS route my husband will forever blame me for "killing the dog" as he put it.

And you will never forgive yourself if the dog harms the baby. Maybe give it one last shot- find a behaviourist but have a deadline (e.g. 6 weeks) when you both agree what needs to happen to keep the dog or PTS.

Once the baby starts crawling then you will have major issues.

The OP dog will not be retrained in 6 weeks. It is obviously not suited to a multi dog house. It needs to be in a one dog household and retrained.

The opinions were from vets, behaviourists and from a rehoming charity.

To explain, none of those are as qualified as a veterinary behaviourist. That's why I suggested someone who has formally studied veterinary medicine and then formally studied behavioural science and can combine scientific knowledge of the two.

A vet has the medicine and will have picked up some behavioural but will not have studied/qualified in it.

A behaviourist will have studied the behavioural and picked up some medical but will not have studied it formally.

A rescue charity can vary greatly in their skill and knowledge.

A veterinary behaviourist is the only category qualified to both understand what is medically going on for this dog and what is behaviourally going on. That's why they are the top dogs for this kind of scenario.

Clearly it’s too late for this advice. But having a reactive dog and deciding to get a second dog is absolutely irresponsible. Never mind when there are children in the mix.

Rather than euthanising your dog because he isn’t suited to living in a busy household with other dogs and babies etc, might it not be more reasonable to offer him the chance to live in a quieter, single dog household?

I realise this is closing the stable door after the horse has bolted, but why did you get a second dog when you knew your first was dog reactive?

I have to wonder this as well, he's reactive and on top of that, his owners have made him live in close quarters with another dog - the poor thing must be so incredibly stressed.

You say your second dog is stressed and urinating in fear - but your older dog is showing fear through aggression. The vast majority of reactive dogs are reactive because they're scared, and they've learnt that being aggressive keeps other dogs away from them, and so it's a never-ending cycle.

See a dog - fear - aggression - dog goes away.
See a dog - fear - aggression worked last time, so let's try again - dog goes away.

And it just gets ingrained into them.

It IS possible to turn it around but you have to consider everyones' needs here. You have a small baby in the house as well as a terrified younger dog. I don't think you should PTS but I do think you need to re-home him somewhere where he's an only dog and isn't having to deal with the constant stress of another dog in his space 24/7.

I think a few people here haven't clocked that the vet (?) thinks this dog has a neurological condition that may be resulting in aggression.

That is a wild card and is the reason no one here can know what training can achieve with this dog.

There is a neurological rage syndrome associated with cocker spaniels. If the vet has diagnosed him with it is not a training issue and having him pts might be kindest.

But there hasn't been a formal diagnosis.

The kindest thing to do, for now, would be to take the dog out of the home that's causing him incredible levels of stress. Yes, he should get further tests but keeping a severely reactive dog in a home with another dog is just insane.

I respectfully disagree. And I genuinely mean respectfully.

Where is the OP going to rehome a dog that may have a neurological problem that causes aggresssion and that will require immediate veterinary and behavioural expense to determine that and that is less stressful than where he is? That's a tall order for any one or any charity, especially right now.

Getting a qualified assessment would be my priority. That way, any action I took would be based on qualified support from someone who has seen the dog in real life.

But, in full disclosure: suggestion rehoming as a way forward for a dog with this write up would have had me fail an assessment at uni (degree, canine behaviour), so I may well be blinded/biased by that.

It sounds like 'Cocker rage'. The dog needs to be rehomed immediately. It is not safe for your baby. Your DH is absolute idiot to emotionally blackmail you about 'killing the dog' when you have a baby around. He needs to look at it from the baby's perspective, he is a parent.

The specialists think that this behaviour could get worse over time and we've been advised not to rehome him as he's an accident waiting to happen but to have him PTS.

That sounds pretty clear to me. Upsetting, unwelcome but clear.

Your husband needs to be talking to the specialists. If he hasn’t been, then I would discount his opinion, to be honest.

Unless you can find a breed specific rescue who specialises in these sort of cases, and is willing to try rehabilitating him, with a hefty financial donation from you, then you don’t have an option except PTS. Anything except PTS or rehabilitation by an expert is cruel to the dog.

There are emergency fosterers who can take dogs who can no longer stay in their home. These fosterers are used to dealing with dogs who are unwell, who have aggression issues and who cannot ever be around other dogs. OP needs to speak to a rescue first thing in the morning and get the dog out of her home.

As it is, she's already been incredibly reckless by taking on a puppy when her existing dog is so seriously dog-reactive. IMO, the best thing for that dog, in the short-term, is to be in a dog-free home. Whether that's temporary before the dog is PTS, or with the view to long-term foster or care is irrelevant - the dog is in a home where he is incredibly stressed and that won't be helping his behaviour.

Potential neurological issues aside (remember, this dog has no formal diagnosis), this dog is not safe where he is. So my priority would be making him safe.

It may well be this dog needs putting to sleep, but I don't think any decision about his future should be made until he is in a home where he is safe and away from the immediate "threat" of other dogs.

What adverse training methods ?