To crate or not?

[wintersgold]

We're bringing home our golden retriever puppy in a couple weeks & still haven't settled on whether to use a crate or not.

If we do decide to use one it will only be for the first few weeks (or until the puppy's housetrained). We'll obviously have puppy proofed rooms and play pens too so he doesn't get into danger.

Personally I would prefer not to crate but it seems to be the "done thing" now. I've read that it's pretty much essential for housetraining.

How true is that? If anyone managed to successfully housetrain their puppy without a crate please could you share any advice!

Thank you
(I don't want to start a debate on the ethics of crating please! Just looking for advice on other methods)

I’ve had 3 dogs from puppy to adulthood and have crated overnight only. Never used it for toilet training and slept downstairs next to it when toilet training. Never used it during the day - always had various beds around the house for daytime naps. Never put them in their crate if they were being left home alone - just made sure the kitchen was puppy proofed and left them with Kongs, chew toys etc.

They’ve all gone and put themselves in their crates at nighttime / when they want to go to
bed.

No you don’t, for the first week or so you have the puppy close by so you can hear them scrabbling around and whining to go out. Setting an alarm and waking them up is counter productive to toilet training.

Setting an alarm and waking them up is counter productive to toilet training.

It depends on the dog. Some won't wake you by scrabbling so unless you want your dog stuck in a crate with it's own mess then an alarm is the only option.

I think as you will see from the messages it’s personal choice but also so dependent on the puppy!
we did use a crate but not to toilet train but because our house is open plan and we just could not safely puppy proof it. Also our spaniel was a bitey landshark when tired so we had to enforce nap time, he’d be asleep before the door was even closed as he knew crate/cage whatever you call it was a safe place to snooze
now he’s older we don’t use it much
We did laps use it at night initially but now he has a bed next to our bed where the crate was. It helped keep him safe and he knew it was sleep time, he whined if he wanted to go out the same as he whines now without the crate, we got up regularly in the night when he was younger but now we have to get him up as he’d snooze all day in bed if he could

That's the same as us butternutbiscuits. Our last dog slept on our bed from the first night and went into a play pen if I needed to go out. My house is also open plan, I don't have a room I can put a pup in.
This one was very chewy, she even managed to chew the paint off my bedroom wall. She also jumped straight out of the play pen first time she was in it.
We moved an armchair out of the living room so she's next to us if she goes in during the day and another beside the bed. She bangs on the side when she wants to go out at night.
She occasionally will sleep on DDs floor, but won't in my room.

I’ve always set my alarm for a young puppy. It works.

People so often say, 'oh yes, my dog goes into his crate voluntarily, even with the door open. It's his safe space'. Well, unless you have provided a bed elsewhere, it's not his safe space, it's his bed, so of course he goes there if he wants to rest. I have never referred to my (uncrated) dog's bed as a 'safe space'; I sometimes think people refer to it as such to try and distance themselves from the fact that it is a cage.

You are attributing human feelings to a dog. A dog has no clue what a crate is. Be horrified if I want to put you in a cage but my dog couldn’t care less. You see, a dog doesn’t have an emotive response like a human does. That’s because a dog is a dog and you are a human. Spot the difference. 🐶🤷‍♀️

@dollymuchymuchness I think you have misunderstood my post. It's got nothing to do with anthropomorphism whatsoever. Also you are incredibly patronising.

No, I understood you perfectly. 😊

I agree with you @Brownlongearedbat. I'm not 100% anti-crate since I think they have their (limited) uses. But unfortunately, many people overuse them. If the door is always open and the dog has the choice to enter and exit at will, O.K. But that is often not the case.

As for anthropomorphising dogs as someone else mentioned, my dislike of crates springs from quite the opposite. It is based on observation of my dogs' behaviour. They very rarely stay in the same position for long, certainly not for the whole night. They stand up, move around, wander into another room, look out the window, choose another place to lie down. If they were confined to a small space that was just large enough for them to stand up and turn around, they wouldn't be happy. Animals are creatures of habit so they'd probably get used to it. But that doesn't mean they would actually like a crate or choose it freely if other options were available.

I absolutely agree with this. All the stuff about “caging a dog” totally overlooks that dogs seek shelter like this in the wild. My dog regularly seeks her own den - under tables, chairs, under the stairs etc.

We have about 3 bed spaces around the house - including a blanket at the bottom of our bed. She would still regularly choose her crate above all other places.

My first dog was apparently crate trained.
He used to cry and wee in his bed. Every night.

We let him on our bed at the end one night. He had no accidents. Didn't cry.

I dont think it's for all dogs.

Why would there be no other beds? Who has only one dog bed?

My dog has one in every room he uses, plus blankets that he drags through and arranges as he wants... and a piece of human furniture in every room he uses that he’s allowed on.

Though he is currently lying on the floor with his legs squashed in a corner behind an open door for some reason known only to him, lol, but he’s not even actually crate trained and he still chooses to go in it to sleep a lot.

They very rarely stay in the same position for long, certainly not for the whole night. They stand up, move around, wander into another room, look out the window, choose another place to lie down.

My dog sleeps on my bed all night. People always trot out the same paragraph about polyphasic sleeping on threads about crates but not all dogs move about in the night.

Mine sleeps on my bed all night as well, but he gets up to stretch and change positions. He doesn't just stay in the same place and the same position on the bed

We used a crate because in the wild, pups would naturally have their den to go to which is a safe, comfy space for them to feel safe and get away from life if they are tired. Crates replicate the den feeling. My puppy loved her crate and chose to go in it when she wanted to nap. She still sleeps in there overnight (at a year old) and loves it. She was potty trained super quickly.

Rubbish. My dog has beds all over the house and STILL chooses the crate so there goes your nonsense theory

My dog sleeps on my bed all night. People always trot out the same paragraph about polyphasic sleeping on threads about crates but not all dogs move about in the night.

Mine sleeps on my bed too, but he shifts around constantly - curls up, stretches out, gets in and out of the covers, cuddles with me, cuddles with DH and in summer occasionally lies on the floor if it's too hot.

He certainly doesn't spend longer than a couple of hours in one position.

But I assume your cage has its door open all the time , that’s the point it’s only a choice if they can get out whenever they want .

No. I have three dogs, don't like crates think they're cruel, I would not like being locked up in a cage basically for hours and not being able to move around and I'm sure they don't.
They soon get the hang off training and if you are vigilant should only have a couple of accidents.
I used to take mine in the garden every half hour or so. X

All my puppies are crate trained. They do really well. My oldest dog is 12, she was crate trained and has always been a very well adjusted dog. You need a crate that’s large enough, so the puppy can move around. You make one end really comfy with soft cushions and cosy blankets.

I take my puppies outside every 20 minutes for toilet training. I also take them out when they wake up, after a game and after food. My puppies are loved, cuddled and played with frequently.

You don’t want to be locked in a cage for hours and not be able to move around. That’s an emotive human response. Dogs don’t think like that. You too are attributing human feelings to dogs. Dogs aren’t humans.

We have had 3 puppies over the last 20 years, all 3 crate trained. They absolutely love the crate - it is definitely not a toilet training training aid but a tool to help a puppy feel safe and give him his own space away from kids, family life, visitors or just peace. None of ours have ever messed in their crate and we’re weaned off them in teenage years - however occasionally used for various reasons - mainly visiting family dogs to ensure separation overnight.
They literally try and get in the crate as soon as they see it, currently have a 13 1/2 ye old lab and a 5 yr old Airedale. I will always crate my dogs as they love it so much, I agree with it being useful if needed for vets as our previous dale had bilateral hip replacements and had to spend 3 months in a crate each time - if not his own safe space he would have been incredibly distressed.
Currently discussing the next pup - it will be crate trained.

When they choose to go in, the door is open yes, but the point is even though they are put in there with the door closed sometimes it’s still where they usually choose to go when it is a choice.

It’s definitely the crate they like btw, and not just because there’s a bed in it.

My last dog was crate trained as a puppy and then had operations that needed crate rest and because of those developed behavioural issues that meant he had to be crated to allow strangers in the house. So as an adult he was crated by me much more than I usually would do.

It was still his favourite place to sleep when he had other options though, it was where he ran to if something in the garden scared him (bog standard garden, but apparently hedgehogs are terrifying). It was where he snuck off to with his stolen socks.

But also, when we swapped out the large size crate for a XXl - even though I’d put it up and moved his actual bed into it he spent a good 15 minutes trying to work out how to get in his old folded up one. When we went on holiday with him, he wasn’t interested in the bed until we got the crate out and put it in... that’s when he’d settle down.

Do some people not crate train properly and just lock up a stressed dog? Yes, I’m sure they do, but then I’m very sure there are owners who don’t use crates that also do things that aren’t ok.

If you go by the objections some people have about crates, you could assume that some dog owners don’t let them have choices of beds, leave 8 week old puppies alone overnight and leave their dog home alone for very long periods of time - because why would you assume that’s how crates are used unless that’s how you think people look after a dog? I’m not entirely serious, obviously, but... it is weird that people have strong feelings about it when they’re making wrong assumptions about how most people use them.

They’re absolutely not an essential, but they are generally a positive thing.

Great post @tabulahrasa .