When your dog fights with another….

[fatherfurlong]

Hope I never need this advice but……

I have a rescue dog who is quite nervous, he plays nicely with dogs he knows but nearly always females and smaller than him if a new dog appears on the scene he can growl and present as aggressive. Today he had an encounter like that with a large uncastrated male ( my dog is uncastrated on the advice of vet and behaviourist). I called him away from the other dog who at 10 months towered over my 18 month old. The other owner pulled his dog away and we walked in opposite directions. A few minutes later we encountered each other again- now they were both off lead, they had a good sniff at each other a bit more growling and then a chase and seemed OK. I am a first time dog owner as was the other owner so we are still learning about dog communication and we chatted a bit about ‘reading potential dangerous situations’ but then I decided to leave in case they kicked off again.

Although all was well it made me think about what happens if dog’s really fight and one or both are injured what happens. I know if one dog is on a lead it is deemed that the other dog, not on a lead and owner are responsible but if both dogs are off lead? Having ensured the dogs are separated and safe do you exchange insurance/personal details like when you have a car accident? I assume the insurers then sort it out and a claim is made on the insurance of the person deemed liable but how easy is that to determine? Or does the injured dog’s owner claim on their insurance in which case their premiums will go up the following year so is the other party expected to contribute to cover this?

Sorry I am not making much sense but hope you get the gist of it!

[Itsbackagain]

My rescue dog is so reactive she automatically is leashed whenever there are other dogs around. That's the only way it should be if they cannot be trained out of it.

[Trulyweird1]

If both dogs are off lead, you are unlikely to be able to prove which was the aggressor, especially in the circumstance you describe, and your insurance company would be paying for your dog only.
I have never been in the position of exchanging details, thankfully, but if my dog was the aggressor, I would be giving the other owner my name and number, and then be talking to any applicable insurance company ( could be the dogs, could be the household, depending on which one covered my personal liability).
it’s not like a car; there’s not a legal requirement to have insurance, nor to provide details.
Your legal requirement is to keep your dog under control, at all times.

[Leonberger]

I was under the impression that if both dogs are off lead then it would just be classed as one of those things regardless of how or why it happened therefore each party would pay for their own dogs injury.
If it was an off lead dog in a fight with an on lead dog I would expect the off lead dogs owner to be liable, since the on lead dog is under control.

I would be very wary of letting your dog get into these type of situations though.
You have an admittedly nervous growly entire male still going through adolescence and really he shouldn’t be interacting with anyone if he’s even the tiniest bit likely to not be fine. Any bad or negative experiences can impact him for life at this stage so everything you do with him must be positive. If he does start with the wrong dog and get into an altercation you could end up with a fear aggressive dog yourself. Remember growling is a pre cursor to a bite and it should never get to the point your dog is put into a situation where your dog has to escalate its behaviour to put the point across- as an owner you should step in way before that! Advocate for your dog, if he’s unhappy then remove him from the situation or don’t put him there in the first place.

Socialisation isn’t allowing free interaction between dogs and seeing how things play out, it’s about teaching the dog that no matter what if he listens to you everything will be fine and by putting him into situations that make him uncomfortable your really risking all trust being lost.

Sorry if I’ve gone off topic…I’ve made many dog mistakes and I wish someone had told me from the beginning that actually not all dogs like eachother and that’s fine!

[coffeecupsandfairylights]

I know if one dog is on a lead it is deemed that the other dog, not on a lead and owner are responsible but if both dogs are off lead?

If both dogs are off the lead and you're in a public place, both owners are equally responsible. However, if your dog entered a private garden (by jumping a wall, for example) and bit the resident dog, you would be considered responsible as your dog would be classed as out of control.

Having ensured the dogs are separated and safe do you exchange insurance/personal details like when you have a car accident?

I don't think there's any legal responsibility to give your details, though of course morally the right thing is to take responsibility if your dog has caused injury.

I assume the insurers then sort it out and a claim is made on the insurance of the person deemed liable but how easy is that to determine? Or does the injured dog’s owner claim on their insurance in which case their premiums will go up the following year so is the other party expected to contribute to cover this?

Dogs are considered property so technically you are responsible for insuring your own dog and covering any vet bills that occur. The other owner could offer to say, pay the premium or go halves on the bills, but AFAIK there is no legal obligation for them to do so.

If you choose to let your dog off the lead to socialise with unknown dogs, that's your risk to take IMO, and you can't hold the other owner responsible when you've both chosen to take the same silly risk in the first place.

[butternutbiscuits]

I would say your dog isn’t ready to be off lead to be honest
keep them on a long line and away from other dogs. Speak to the rescue and see what support is available

[hiredandsqueak]

Ours is a rescue, when she first came she was nervous around all dogs so I walked her when she was unlikely to encounter any others. We are nearly four years down the line now and she has familiar dogs that she plays with, some she ignores and walks past and a couple that she will always growl at so I always put her on the lead then as does my neighbour as his dog growls at her too. Around here accepted rule seems to be if you put your dog on a lead the approaching owner puts theirs on a lead as well. If I don't know the dog she goes on the lead which seems to work for us.

[SarahSissions]

whilst I agree with much above I’d add that dog walkers talk, so whilst if both are off the lead it might be difficult to prove who was at fault, if yours gets known for being the aggressor or always involved you might find that repeated reports from different people cause trouble.
if you aren’t totally confident in your dog (which you aren’t) then really you should only be letting them off in a secure field or with a long line on.

[fatherfurlong]

Thanks for your responses esp coffecupsandfairylights who gave me precise replies to my questions.

Maybe I wasn’t clear, my dog is always on a lead in public places as his recall is iffy and he is sensitive to usual park traffic I.e bicycles, children, skateboarders and other dogs who run up to him and pester him.
He is off lead in a dog enclosure which is secure but of course we do not have sole use of it. It is the only place apart from our garden where he can run free and has the benefit of being able to run and play with other dogs while owners are in attendance unlike the park where often owners are nowhere to be seen- supervised freedom if you like.
If a larger dog appears he at least has the freedom to run or indeed engage after weighing the opposition up unlike the park where neither he or I will have no option other than to be tossed this way and that trying to fend off a large dog until the owners turns up breathless and apologetic.

[butternutbiscuits]

From your update the enclosure sounds the same as the park really you are trusting others to have dogs that play nice when you know your dog can be reactive
dogs don’t actually need to run free and play as such… look up the trainer who has recently been advocating stop walking your dog (obv more to it than that!)
I’d also be asking the rescue for some advice so you can work to support your dog and help stop this escalating

[coffeecupsandfairylights]

I'm glad it helped OP :)

It's difficult because dog on dog attacks (where both dogs are off-lead) aren't taken very seriously by law, and owners are seen as equally responsible as they both chose to let their dogs off the lead to begin with.

I personally don't let my dog play off-lead with strange dogs as I just don't trust other people when they their dog is friendly, lol. Plus it only takes a second for play to "turn".

I'm actually a dog walker and my dog comes to work with me, but outside of those dogs (who I know and have "vetted" for suitability) he's generally not allowed to play unless it's a dog I know really well (family dogs, or dogs with walkers I've known for years). For me, it's just not worth the risk and while I do think most dogs are generally friendly, the risks hugely outweigh any potential benefits.

[fatherfurlong]

Thanks butternutbiscuits, yes every time you step outside the front door you are trusting other owners to act responsibly this is true and of course no one else’s dog is reactive - they are just ball obsessed and will react if another dog tries to take it or had a bad experience with a dog that looked a bit like yours that’s why they turned or they reacted because another walker had treats and it all kicked off or he/she is fine off lead but reacts because they feel trapped on it (all things I have heard whilst I’ve been walking my dog who to my mind is no more ‘reactive’ than any of the aforementioned dogs).

I have been in contact with the rescue but as someone else on here said they move on to the next lot they are rescuing, they are overstretched and staffed by volunteers who have no qualifications just experience of owning a dog ( much like mumsnet).

[SarahSissions]

look up trigger stacking and the canine aggression ladder. It seems to me that your dog isn’t enjoying their walks, so almost what is the point.
if they are on edge they won’t learn, or become less anxious over time. You need to pair the environmental stimulation back a bit or take charge of the situation so your dog doesn’t feel the need to.
i don’t like everything this guy does- but this video is quite good to see how the dogs reaction changes when the dog doesn’t feel that they are having to manage situations but the owner (or in this case handler) is doing it for them.

[SarahSissions]

[ScattyHattie]

Your dog might not be the initial aggressor but if the other one ends up with more severe injuries or dead then it's likely to be seen as your fault. These days I'm not sure it's just the legal stuff to worry about but local social media witch hunt that can occur.

I'd try to keep to known dogs/owners for off lead play times, rather than risk strangers. Try to introduce new dog friends, especially those expect maybe issue slowly in controlled manner like walking on lead parallel at a good distance away so they can see & smell but don't have to interact and gradually reduce as seem comfortable, before moving to totally off leash

I've always avoided walking in dog heavy places if possible where we'd likely face random dogs charging over as even if just this over friendly= rude greeting dogs, it's those repeated interactions that can tip your dog into feeling it has to try scare them away to feel safe and then you can end up with a difficult life managing reactivity and people assuming it's a nasty aggressive dog. Sometimes just have to get right time of day but you do find certain places have a higher% of twat owners that have no idea about dog behaviour and don't actually care what their dogs doing on a walk.

My anxious reactive dog i loosely followed the B.A.T training and wherever possible gave him a comfortable distance to view other dogs to keep him under threshold, if not enough safe space to pass by an oncoming dog we just turned around and walked other way. The signals you send down the lead can make your dog anxious of a threat and be on alert as we often automatically slow down on seeing approaching dog and then tighten lead to pass. My boy lived with other dogs so always had social interaction and then my dog walker let us meet & walk with her own dog to see how he behaved and gradually moved onto other dogs she walked that she knew would be a good match.

grishastewart.com/bat-overview/

[Sitdowncupoftea]

Personally I would not be letting your dog off the leash. You can use a longline then use distraction when another off leash dog is about.
If your dog is on the leash and another dog attacks the other dog is at fault. Any off leash dog is not in your control and that includes yours.
My dog hates other dogs bouncing over and will nip them. He doesn't like other dogs due to past experience he's a rescue. I get fed up of off leash dogs bouncing over to him whilst I have to shout to the owners put your dog on a leash. He is walked on a longline. I reel it in when I see another off leash dog.