Rescue dogs, bite, humping

[WorriedMumofTeen16]

I rescued a Romanian dog about 3 yrs ago, aged 8 months. Large xbreed, not quite sure what. Was food possessive to begin but trained out and now a big softy, will take biscuits from your mouth etc.

Two months ago we got a second dog, another rescue, aged 3, German Pointer or similar.

Both get on like a house on fire, eat together, sleep together etc and play continually, evenly.matched for playfighting and use every inch of the garden to chase and play.

I was at work yesterday and there has been an incident at home with DD16 and her mate, 17.

Dogs have been fed and the newer dog has apparently gone for the food of the older one, and got hold of the older one. They've had hold of each other, barrel rolling round rather than ripping chunks iyswim? The kids have seperated them and got the newer dog in his crate. All seemed to have calmed down and they've let me know what's happened. DDs friend has been caught on the cheek in the melee and I've said it probably needed looking at. It was left that they'd head to his house for older brother to have a.look.

Ten minutes later I get a hysterical phone call. Older dog has gone for DDs friend. They have said that he was sat putting his shoes on when he ran towards him and as he put his arm up he has been bitten on the arm. Dogs locked in the room and they're outside. Told them to 999, put pressure on and I'll call my gaffers to get off shift and home (work solo and needed someone to take me.off).

I get to hospital a few minutes after them. He has scratches, and two puncture holes. I think this is called an inhibited bite? It certainly could've been much much worse.

They're both a bit vague as to what set off the older dog and say he just ran at DD friend. I'm just absolutely baffled, as are they as it's just so I like him, no matter that it's a cliche.

Some superglue, a tetanus and antibiotics later we are heading home. I'm devastated and waiting to hear from the police as it's obviously been reported to them. At this point I'm unsure of what is going to happen going fwd and what awaits me at home. Both dogs are crated as DD went inside and ordered the older dog to his crate also, and he went straight in.

I have another adult there with me at this point and let them out in the garden to allow them space and see how they are. They picked up as if.nothing had happened and they hadn't had grief, playing as usual for about twenty mins.

The older dog at this point gets really frisky and I seperated them. He did this for the first couple of days when we got the newer dog so I recognise the signs, but there's been nothing since, til yesterday. Now he is constantly and I mean constantly trying to mount the younger.one, to the point he won't come away, even when I've put him on lead and pulled away, he is still trying to get to him so it's quite forceful. I've seperated them since, even the usual bedtime routine and snacks wouldn't calm him.down and he has had to be crated overnight.

I'm devastated that he has bitten, I don't know what has set it off and can only imagine he was freaked by the earlier attack, though this is no excuse for his behaviour. I don't know what's going to happen going fwd, I don't know why he is being so focused on the other dog and I don't know how to deal with this. The other adult, who used to breed and show dogs so has quite extensive experience, has suggested that the new bitch next door could be on heat which is sensing my older dog a bit doolally, I can perhaps understand the humping if the but would this cause him to bite, really?

Older dog isn't done but will be imminent ly, needless to say, not been an issue previously, younger is.

Please help me hive mind, I'm confused and upset and really can't get my head around it all, unsure how to proceed. TIA.

He has scratches, and two puncture holes. I wouldn't call it an inhibited bite if it's punctured the skin. There's a scale for dog bites: www.animalwised.com/the-6-levels-of-dog-bites-the-dunbar-bite-scale-1929.html
Was it a single bite and release?

I would take both dogs for a vet check but warn the vet that they have bitten recently (They are more likely to bite again in the next few days, whilst their stress levels are returning to normal). I would also ask the vet to refer you to a qualified behaviourist.

The humping could be for a multitude of reasons. It could even be because he is in pain or because he is still in a heightened state after the fight. Do you know how the fight was split up? Could he have been injured or frightened by your DD's friend?

I would keep both dogs completely separate for the time being and keep everything as calm as possible.

No one on here can say for sure what caused the bite or is causing the humping. You really need someone to assess the dogs in real life.

I didn't want to read and run. This all sounds very stressful and I'm sorry you're going through it 😢 I am no expert but it does seem that your older boy is feeling the need to reassert himself with the younger/newer rescue.
I think heading to the vet for a general checkup would be a good idea. Best of luck.

At this point I’d consider re homing one of the dogs. Neutering will not stop humping if it’s being done to establish dominance, and they will still mount a bitch in heat even when they’re neutered. The decision may get taken out of your hands depending on the outcome with the police. Have you spoken with your daughters friends parents? I believe that the law changed a while back, and now dog attacks on people inside private properties are considered just as serious as they are when they’re out on the street. Are the parents likely to press charges/seek compensation?

The antibiotics for a dog bite can make people vomit. You can get an antiemetic from the pharmacy.
Honestly my sister was badly bitten by a dog. After multiple behaviorist appointments, medication etc so I. would rehome (being honest about the attach) or PTS. It’s too much of a risk.
And yes the police should be involved

Vet appointment asap and ask them for a referral to a qualified APBC behaviourist.

Noone on here can give any useful answers without seeing the situation in rl.

The situation will not go away on its own so even if things are calm for a while this issues will reappear and does need dealing with

It was a bite and release, like I say as a big dog he could've done so much damage but didn't attempt to according to them, he backed straight off. The other dog had hold of the older one but it was described as barrel rolling rather than biting/fighting. No injuries to either. It's hard as I'm going off their description as I wasn't there. From what they've said DDs friend had the older dog in kind of a chokehold to split them up so yes quite possibly very scared. Older dog has been sniffing youngest nethers increasingly last few days but no mounting prior to this.

Older dog is very much in "must"today is the best way I can describe it, dogs are being kept seperated, waiting for vet as I have to arrange a lift, no car, and looking like it may be the weekend before I can get a lift.

The paramedics have said the police may contact but probably just to advise as it was lower end of seriousness, I fully expect to hear back from them and agree they should be involved, no issues at all with that.

His Dad was away for work yesterday which is why I went to the hospital, he came home and went out again without speaking to the lad today, seems unconcerned and has said it's one of those things apparently.

I guess I want to know if humping for dominance is a thing?and how to deal if I decide to keep, which is uncertain yet, my heads a bit mushed today tbh. Not had it before. And I had a rescue many years ago who bit and meant it and ragged, with zero provocation,I had him PTS immediately so it's not that I'm trying to wiggle out, just that I don't know exactly what happened, both kids seem quite unconcerned and have said it just happened so fast and out of character for the older dog, and have been with him today wanting to fuss him and he has been fine (albeit I did it on a lead).

Younger one wants to play with older one today but he literally just wants to hump constantly, I'm seperating them as I try and figure out what's what. Both dogs act normally when apart, no injuries that I can see. If it wasn't for the humping thing they'd be perfecly normal with each other it seems, and were when I first came home. Friend has said he doesn't want to take it further, I fully expected Dad to but he seems unconcerned. Haven't seen neighbour out to ask if her bitch is in heat.

I have contacted the rescue as they have a support network, waiting to hear back, they're usually about late at night after the shelter is put to bed for the night.

Sorry if this is a bit disjointed as I try and answer questions, heads in a shed today

To add, booked at vets Friday morning, that was earliest they had

Humping is not a dominance thing.
Ignore anyone (including the rescue) if they spout dominance/pack theory. It has been well and truly discredited.

This is why I'm confused as there's so much conflicting Info out there. The vets have just said it might be a dominance play but that wasn't the actual vet obviously. I've not had this in over 30 yrs of dogs so it's a new one on me. The bitch next door is a new pet, they've had her about 4 months so is it possible it's her first season and it's sending the older dog a bit round the twist with the humping?

The school of veterinary science lists dominance as one of many possible reasons for inappropriate mounting.
Op I’ve attached what they’d advise you to do. I’d be more concerned than you seem to be about the attacks though. When you say the child’s face was cut as they ‘got caught’, what do you mean? They got caught or banged on an object, or the dog bit them on the face? And when the dog rushed to attack them when they were sitting down, you say they put their arm up to defend themselves and the dog bit them on the arm. What body part was the dog going for before it was blocked by the arm? I’m assuming it was going for the child’s face again? Do you think keeping an animal that has repeatedly bitten/gone for a child’s face resulting into them requiring hospital treatment the right thing to do?

I'll have a read of that thanks. The 17yo friend got a claw to the face I believe when seperating them, as I've today had chance to talk to them at length, with police. He actually got the dog concerned in a chokehold, as his collar came off and he couldn't get a grip, from his account today. I don't actually know what happened when he got bitten as I wasn't here unfortunately, and of course I am concerned, I've had little sleep and thought about little else. The dog went towards him and he put.his arm up and got bitten. That's all they have said. I don't know if the teen was jumpy after they seperated them over the food and the dog was simply approaching, he put his arm up unnecessarily and the dog took that as a threat and bit or if the dog was actually going for him to attack, which he also cannot tell me, he just says it happened fast and it's a blur. This is why I'm trying.to establish what happened, to the best of my ability, what could've caused it, and how to proceed from here, whether that be prevention, rehoming etc. If the vet advises pts then I will do that. To suggest I'm not being proactive is unfair, I wouldn't have come on here asking for advice and would simply have ignored it if that were the case. The police have told me in the last ten minutes that they are not taking it further though obviously it's logged, they've taken my vet details and have confirmed I have an appointment for assessment and are happy I'm trying to find a safe and best way forward, whatever the end result of that may turn out to be..

I have just bought basket muzzles for both, for when they do inevitably cross over the next few days as I try and workout a way fwd, one crate is in the kitchen so one dog will have to pass the other in the crate to go into the garden, for example, so I am putting every measure into place I can before seeing the vet.

I've just spoken to a local dog behaviour company who have said it's the older dog trying to dominate after the younger one tried to be food dominant, and that if the bitch next door is in heat it would exacerbate it. So much conflicting info as others have suggested it's not a dominance thing yet the source you cite says it is.

The teens have been around both dogs, seperately, today, of their own volition, though I have kept both on leads, and remain wary obviously. Hopefully the vet can shed more light Friday and advise of the best way forward, and I will heed that, whether it be training with a behaviour specialist, rehoming one, pts, or other. Absolutely heartbreaking and I've been beating myself up since, wondering what's caused it and if I could've done anything else. No inkling of the dog being nasty prior, and he did live with another dog before myself and ex split up, each taking one dog, with no issues.

You mentioned a neighbour's new female dog, who could be in season, and your dog which did the attacking was unneutered - I wondered if it was a kind of deferred aggression and arousal that's caused this. He doesn't know WHY he's aroused, he's just got the hormones screaming in his little head and is thoroughly excited but also confused.

I would definitely speak to your vet first, get them both fully checked over. A vet can also refer you to a registered behaviourist who can help.

Humping is not dominance (ever) Love to know the source of the royal veterinary info posted above and date.

I can not give specific advice as it would be unprofessional but you are reading a lot into this situation.

The facts are you have an established dog and have very recently in the last 2 months introduced a new rescue adult dog. They are allowed to chase and play which will highten overarousal. An over aroused dog for whatever reason will quickly turn into a very over responsive and sometimes aggressive dog eg biting and growling

The stress levels will be high in both dogs and arousal excitment levels high. It is a situation where the dogs were over aroused, stressed and reacted as dogs commonly do.

On a very general level you need to have separate areas to allow the dogs to chill alone, give them time together but a lot of time apart for several months yet. Look carefully at their body language towards each other. Look for milliseconds of freezin, turning away, lip lickin whale eyes, sniffing shaking of their fur etc.

If your local behaviour centre is suggesting dominace walk away please this is just so wrong and so out of date.

You need to read uptodate (well tbh not that uptodate dominance has been dismissed since the 70's!) literature.

Look at Suzanne Clothier work
Patricca Mcconnel
Karen Pryor
Jean Dennison
James O'Heare
R Coppinger
John Bradshaw
D Mills

This is something I will be speaking to the vet about. He was booked to be neutered next month anyway, just not been an issue until now. The female dog escapes on a weekly basis as they only have a token wall (just over a foot at the bottom of the garden) and it's often left outside on a chain to howl for hours unfortunately. Third dog they've had in the 18months I've lived here so not sure it will be here long tbh 😔but would be useful to know if it is a trigger. No reply from neighbour today, I've knocked three times.

Thankyou, I will look into those.

We did introduce the dogs slowly and were surprised when they were like best buddies right from the get go. They were allowed limited time to chase and then calmed down and we have built this up slowly, with long lines gradually lengthening, before going free, in an effort to prevent over hype. They will settle down easily when told. They also have seperate crates, in different areas of the house so out of sightlines, and both will go into "their" space at will, and at their own instigation. Neither has encroached on the others crate. If I'm out then crates are used so they've never been unsupervised and together.

I've always fed them apart but daughter fed them and walked away, idk if that's part of what kicked it off.

There's been no bad body language towards each other.

The behaviour co I spoke to today is a highly recommended one locally so my heads proper mushed now as it really seems to be a 50/50 split about dominance.

I have a funeral tomorrow so may/may not be able to update depending on mindset after

It is not a 50/50 split. Dominance is incorrect and has been disputed by all academic studies and qualified dog professionals. It is not a matter of "what people believe". There are hours and years of academic studies disproving it.

Dominance in dogs is one of the best conspiracy theories ever or false information ever! An outdated belief which never did have any science or evidence behind it.

Ask to see the qualifications of the highly recommeded (by who?) company local to you. They will have none of merit. Behaviourists should be educated to level 5 and above so either a Masters degree or higher.

APDT
Dogs Trust
RSPCA
IMDT
APBC
PPG
Victoria Stillwell
ABTC

Trying to think of names and organisations that are main stream and happily dismiss the dominance theory liek all the above.

RSAPC dismissing dominance theory
Dogs Trust dismissing dominance
ApDT dismissing dominance theory

I'm going to the vets Fri, cant see beyond that atm. Have had a family event tonight, have come home and one of cats has curled up on my lap, given me loads of fuss and gone to sleep, forever, while fussing. Kiddo is going to be devastated. It's "her* cat. Older dog is very quiet, he watched her die, and they were quite close.

I am just in shock, events were mad anyway, this is just crazy. She literally curled up on my lap and went to sleep while fussing. This isn't real.

I'm so sorry about your cat 💐 That must be especially devastating on top of everything else going on right now.
Best of luck to you.

Sorry I've not been back to update sooner, it's been a helluva week, what with the above, th cat, funeral, car also decided to break down and I've been working late shifts and.also had a full days training course between then and now. I'm exhausted.

Went to vets Friday and they did a full MOT. In rude health. They said they wouldn't immediately go down the road of castrating as it's not standard now anyway if there are no other issues unless it's to curb sexual behaviour. They look at it around 6 or 7 for cancer prevention of it's not been done prior and warned that it can increase bad behaviour due to inhibitions being lost. This isn't a school of thought I've heard about before as my last pair of dogs was a bitch and hound and both were done and lasted til they were 12 and 14 respectively, so going to read up on that.

There is an option.of chemical castration that can be tried to see how he would be, also looking into that, and have been given several behaviour experts to contact, so trying to go through these at the weekend when I finally get a few days off.

I kept.the dogs apart until earlier this week and it was as if nothing had happened, playing and fine with each other and the humping has decreased markedly and more each day to almost zero this morning, bitch WAS on heat so fits really.

DD has since said that she thinks they over reacted with the dogs initially, so am not sure exactly what happened, and whether I'll ever get the truth. From the bits n bobs that have come out, they had finished their food and she now says she thinks they were play fighting, and DD friend split them up by using a chokehold on the one.tbat bit, this coupled with heightened state due to the bitch being on heat probably triggered events. As I said, I'll probably never get to the bottom of what's actually happened but needless to say I'm being cautious anyway, have to be.

The recall is back to normal (he was ignoring it to try and hump), and he's calmed back down in himself ( was VERY licky round me, annoyingly so at times, wouldn't leave me alone, which was unusual in itself).

Hoping that it was an awful awful one off, but guard will be always there now and I have agreed with DD that her friend won't be around quite so much aswell (he was getting too much anyway, staying 4/5 nights a week and just helping himself from the fridge etc), and he won't be interacting with dogs. Just something I've got a feeling about and reading between the lines of what I'm.not being told tbh, and it's to do with him putting shoes on when it happened, I'm actually wondering if he's whalloped dog with shoe previously. Just supposition but there is something that's been held back, and she agreed very readily so idk. Will never know I guess.

The cat was buried in a large planter with a colourful Acer that she will nourish over the coming months, and years.

I'm hoping that this streak of crappy stuff has finished now, been a tough tough ten days or so and triggered several migraines.