I am 'that' person with an aggressive dog :( (fear aggression).

[Annesally2]

Backstory is, my dog was never like this before. She's 6. Something has changed.

I have had a really difficult week and I hope this won't be garbled as a result.

about half way down on p4 of this thread, it explains what happened at xmas.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4435462-Did-I-do-the-right-thing-And-WTF-do-I-do-now-I-am-so-scared?pg=4

Which I think is lot if not all, of the reason for her change in behaviour.

If not wanting to read the post on that thread, basically at xmas my Dad really shouted at my dog, and snatched her bone off her that she'd just got.
My dog has never been shouted at like that before, she's generally always been a good dog and it hasn't been necessary. He was horrible, and was shouting at me and my Mum before this too. My dog hates shouting of any sort, when me and my ex were breaking up she'd hide if ex raised her voice even slightly.

I've had dog since she was very young, I weaned her. I know exactly what's happened or not happened with her 90% of the time. When I don't have her, my ex has her (we weaned her as a tiny puppy together) but ex is trustworthy with dogs, I am not worried about anything there.
Doesn't have her often anyway.

I live by myself. Of an evening I often take my dog to the local pub of an evening. It's a very dog friendly pub and area generally.

Everyone in the pub's always loved her, she's always been very sociable and happy for pets and strokes.

Recently, and although it wasn't apparent to me at first, since not long after I began going back in there after the xmas period (I don't like it when It's busy), she's changed.

She'll growl if people approach her, even if she's met them before. She seems very nervous. It was such a shock to me, like a personality change.

Twice more recently, she's actually snapped at people when they've gone to stroke her, luckily they've not been hurt and have been okay about it, but it cannot continue :(

The last (second) time this happened was last night.

I will of course not take her in there any longer, but that doesn't fix this issue. If anything it might make it worse as she doesn't like being left (what dog does) and she may become even less accustomed to being sociable.

She is obviously unhappy, and she was so nervous last night.
Immediately after it happened, the landlord (who adores her and her him) took her out for a quick walk and said she was so jumpy, and alert to every small noise.

Often I take her in late , when nobody is in apart from me and a couple of very regular punters and she's always absolutely fine then. Landlord has suggested I take her late, leave her in the car until only regulars are in and bring her in then, rather than leave her at home. What would be better in terms of helping her with this issue do you think? She doesn't mind being in the car at all, and It's a safe area and I can park right outside.

Another time, she was with me at my DP's house. We were about to leave, and dog was under table and wouldn't come out for some reason. Partner who again, she adores normally put her hand under to stroke her and she bit her hand. :(

Something has definitely upset her and my gut feeling is it was the incident at xmas.

She was always such a lovely dog. She's always been a bit on the nervous side but nothing unusual and never aggressive.

I know I need a behaviourist but there's just so many to choose from. I am going to get ringing around tomorrow.

I am also going to take her to the vet to make sure nothing physical is causing this, but she's been recently for a check so I doubt it.

DP says to go back to basics with ddog, train her as if she's not already been trained to sit, make sure she feels secure, don't let anyone else walk her for a while but me, make sure she sits to have her lead put on (she's quite excitable and admittedly I usually just put the lead on her while she's playing up/jumping about) etc etc... DP knows a fair bit about dogs as has worked with them for a long time before.

My main issue is, that dog is obviously upset, unhappy, and I feel so bad about that! But if she snaps at the wrong person, that's me prosecuted and her muzzled in public for life. Or worse :(

It's definitely fear. But I just feel so terrible.

I don't know what I want from this posts other than perhaps advice on what I can do that I may not have thought of, anyone who can empathise!I am absolutely devastated to be 'that' owner, and for my dog who's obviously changed for the worse. I don't blame her, I love her to bits and want this to work.

Just to advise, I am busy this eve and can't return to this thread for a while-I've not abandoned it and will read and appreciate any responses

Firstly have you had a vet check her over? Sore teeth sore head sore ears etc I would muzzle while you work with her out and work on others stroking to her and speaking to her softly and putting their hand out. Get a professional vets opinion could be she has a sore ear or something.

Are you absolutely 100% certain of anyone your DP or anyone else or thing effecting her?

@IAMGE

Firstly have you had a vet check her over? Sore teeth sore head sore ears etc I would muzzle while you work with her out and work on others stroking to her and speaking to her softly and putting their hand out. Get a professional vets opinion could be she has a sore ear or something.

Are you absolutely 100% certain of anyone your DP or anyone else or thing effecting her?

Not yet but it is next on my list. People putting their hand out is what has caused this situation each time :(

The only thing I can think of is my dad on xmas day. I will have another think though.

Another one saying vet check.

Do not jump to any conclusions or go to far ahead with any thinking until you have had the vet check.

I would want a full blood check as well.

Agree with a check up at the vet. If it’s all clear ask the vet for behaviourist recommendations- these days the world and his wife is doing online courses and calling themselves experts. And keep your bloody dad away from your poor DDog. I hope it’s an easy fix x

I know I need a behaviourist but there's just so many to choose from. I am going to get ringing around tomorrow.

I am also going to take her to the vet to make sure nothing physical is causing this, but she's been recently for a check so I doubt it.

I agree that you need to start with a vet check - the incident with your dad could be coincidence and there might be a medical reason behind this (something causing pain, invariably).

Any good behaviourist will require a vet check first to rule out any medical causes before they'll see you

In terms of which behaviourist to use I'd look for one with these qualifications
apbc.org.uk/find-an-apbc-member/
www.asab.org/ccab-register
abtc.org.uk/practitioners/?_species=dogs&_abtc_role=clinical-animal-behaviourist

Get the vet to refer you to a qualified behaviourist. Good insurance will cover a qualififed behaviourist.

Msc educated in animal behaviour or above.

6 years of age is often when dogs show behavioural changes, eg phobias nose phobia, anxiety, fear for example gets worse as dogs age as do ocd type behaviours often driven by pain and physical changes.

Sounds like a dog in pain. First thing is to go to the vets.

Hi op, this sounds really hard - it must be awful to see your lovely dog so scared. Ask your vet if they can refer you to a behaviourist if there's no physical cause.

In the meantime, definitely don't let people touch her or reach their hands towards her. She's already bitten, chances are she will again if people don't respect her signals.

It's natural to want to know why this has happened, and you may well be right about your dad, but it doesn't really matter what caused it; you just have to accept what she's telling you and try to help her feel safe again.

Personally, I wouldn't take her to the pub right now but if that's really unavoidable, maybe you could go later and sit in a quiet corner; tell everyone to ignore her completely - no talking, looking, nothing. She's invisible. If people don't listen, tell them she bites!! Muzzle training might be a good idea but could make her feel more fearful; I'd get advice first. Just keep people away from her for now X

Do bloods including full thyroid panel

No help but I sympathise - I had a very nervous, neurotic dog that slowly became more aggressive.

She had a poor temperament even as a puppy, but she definitely became worse after an nasty back injury that left her with chronic pain, so it's worth getting her checked over.

Do try and be her advocate, don't let anyone crowd her or stare at her, she will prefer to be mostly invisible until you can work this out. Good luck, it's not easy but you clearly care for her and she's lucky to have you as her owner.

PS no judgement from me - I also have "that dog", and there isn't a chance he'd cope in a pub for longer than it takes to down a jaegerbomb. Unsurprisingly, I don't take him to the pub. Even today, somewhat unusually, he managed to be an absolute dick in the park to a dog that really didn't deserve it mine deserved to be bitten. He is the dog that has made me intolerant of crap training methods and exceedingly tolerant of dogs with issues.

I've found over time (years) that restricting who touches him has allowed him to feel more comfortable with allowing strangers to touch him. It sounds counterintuitive, but I think because he feels an element of control over the situation, and that he has the choice to walk away (strangers are never allowed to touch him when he's on lead) he has actually let some strangers give him bum scratches For context, this is a rescue dog that was reluctant to let me touch him in the early days.

Try giving your dog Dorwest Scullcap and Valarian. It settled my fear aggressive dog so much and was recommended by her behavourist. You have to calm her fear before you can address the behaviour.

I agree with @DietOrDie.

I’ve had many rescue dogs and the best thing I’ve found that helps them is to be the advocate for the dog. Teach them that no matter what nobody will touch them unless they want to be touched (vets excluded of course!) and spend time confidence building so the dog does not feel the need to defend themselves. Even now I have friendly dogs I still don’t allow people to stroke them unless the dog goes to them and asks for it. Surprisingly though it’s rare they do and they tend to prefer to be left alone to people watch.

The growling was the warning that she was not comfortable around strangers and the pub and now because she wasn’t listened too she’s escalated the behaviour. Honestly, I would listen to her and not put her in the situation again until you’ve had some professional help. Many people don’t want to call in a behaviourist but it’s the best money I’ve spent on my dogs.

For now I would try and keep her where she’s comfortable, work on her confidence, play games and build the relationship back up again and then consult someone who can help you with this. I would hope it’s just a blip and she will be able to get over it but if not it’s not the end of the world having a reactive dog, you can still enjoy her but in a different way Theres no reason all dogs should want to be touched all of the time!

As a side note, having a puppy from very young is actually a bad thing behaviour wise, unless of course you had the bitch? I’ve worked with a few hand rears and they really miss out on the socialisation from the bitch and littermates. It really can cause issues later in life if they are separated before the correct age!

Scullcap and valarian as a PP suggested. DAP spray on a bandanna also helps and I would get some pain relief drugs in to see if they make a difference.

She's obviously not comfortable at the pub anymore so for now stop taking her. If she can't be left while you go to the pub then i guess you're not going to the pub for the time being. It does sound like your dad terrifying the wits out of her is what's caused this change. If she's hiding under the table its probably because she's scared, so people sticking their hands in her personal space is going to make her feel threatened and possibly snap - surprised your partner didn't know this if she's worked with dogs before.

Your dog is growling as a form of communication. She doesn't have any other way to express just how scared and uncomfortable she is. Google trigger stacking. You're piling up the situations she isn't comfortable with and she's getting overloaded. So until you get help, leave her at whichever home she's most comfortable in, don't take her to the pub or anywhere near your oaf of a father. Quiet walks where shes not likely to be triggered.

Definitely vet check and then behaviourist. I'd muzzle train her if you can just for when you are out and about (and realistically she'll probably have to be muzzled at the vet and it just makes it a lot less stressful) and then I'd get her a coat that says Nervous or Needs Space Do Not Pet. This will help advocate for her and prevent her being put into situations that add to her stress.

Have the bloody awful fucker pts...
And I don't mean the ddog.
My ddog was punched in the face by one of dh's mates. She never recovered behaviour wise op. 10 years we managed her but it was difficult.. Speak to a trainer.. And never speak to your df. What a twat.

Bless her. What breed is she? You sound like a lovely dog owner and you will get this sorted. Have her checked at the vet and then find a good trainer. Very few dogs are ‘unfixable’ they just need time, love and patience, which you obviously have plenty of

Firstly, please, please DO NOT leave her in the car. This is massively outing, but a few years ago I had a dog stolen from a locked car in a “safe” place. It was the WORST thing that has ever happened to me. We got her back (after months!!!) but I will never forgive myself and would never, ever leave a dog in a car again.
Secondly, find a good behaviourist. obviously don’t know where you live, but I’ve used a man called Ade Howe. He will travel and he’s brilliant. I too have one of “those” dogs, but with his help, she is very manageable and, importantly, much happier.

Please make sure you get referred to a qualified behaviourist by your vet. Anyone can call themselves a behaviourist but use techniques that will make your dog's fear aggression worse. Ade Howe (mentioned above) is a prime example of someone to avoid. Your dog isn't going to be a "quick fix". Her behaviour doesn't need "corrections" and she doesn't need to be forced to confront her fears!

Thank you all, I wasn't expecting so many helpful and empathic replies. Very much appreciated.

@Happenchance yes!I even know someone, a friend who's just qualified as one and he's lovely but there's no way a few weeks online courses can work for something so complex for dog behaviour.

@Buildingthefuture oh how awful! So glad you got her back-do you know what happened?

@Mariposista thank you,I appreciate that. I love her. I don't have children and she's been with me through a lot of crap and I adore her. She's a big dog (I guess if she were a pomerianian/chihuahua it wouldn't be the end of the world if she was snappy but.. She's a mutt of wolf breeds. Think alsation/mal/something else cross. A difficult breed as it is.

@Easterisoffeggstooexpensive Aww :( that's made me feel really quite sad :( poor thing. But your first sentence really made me laugh, you had me for a moment!

I haven't spoken to him since. Although my Mum is trying to negotiate. I should probably insist he pays for a behaviourist.

@Keladrythesaviour she does happily wear a muzzle at the vet (they insist on it with most dogs anyway) so she is muzzle trained anyway. I really don't know that I could have her wear a vest, It's a good idea! But due to size and breed... Not sure. I'lll have a think about that, thank you.

@MotherCupboard thanks. My partner recognises she made a mistake there definitely. Dog has always loved her to bits and didn't think. I wont put her in uncomfortable situations, and she can be left I'd just feel awful about it. It will sound quite 'sad' but as I live alone in a small community, have a solitary job (that I am happy with, mind) my little jaunt to my local pub/community connections, with my dog, are quite a large part of my life. I am much of a loner but I like that, I will google that, I've been researching all sorts of different things about this situation. Thank you.

@StooOrangeyForCrows that's interesting, thank you-another thing on my list of things to research.

@Leonberger thank you for the long post and I admire you for your work with so many rescue dogs.

And yes, oh I know :( I didn't have much choice, long story but I had her dumped on me, it was either I stepped in or she died. I did a lot of reading about hand-reared pups and how they can sometimes end up being quite aggressive and with various problems. I did take her to spend time with her siblings as many times as I could, but her dam was out to kill her, having rejected her and it was difficult to navigate. I thought, that despite knowing just a tad more than the basics about dogs, I had done quite a good job really. She's always been a bit nervous but fine overall. Then this, It's been a massive shock.

I am going to be very careful until I've had some help, definitely.

@Peaness thank you-as I've said definitely a good idea!

@DietOrDie thank you, nice to hear something of a success story. I'd be coming from a very different perspective if she was a recent rescue and this occurred, but the change in her is astounding :(
And thank you so much for those links.

@TheChestertons it isn't unavoidable, I am more worried that keeping her away totally from somewhere where, once It's quiet and there's 2 or three people in who she knows and trusts, may be a very good thing for her-she's very comfortable with that still, although she used to be comfortable there, period.

Thank you to everyone else who I've not 'tagged'. Some good advice and I appreciate all the sympathy. I've got a vet appointment for Tuesday. Will update you all once that's been done. Definitely going to ask for a thorough blood check too. I've explained the issue and they seemed to understand .I kind of 'hope' there's something wrong in a way, that can be treated so that I'll know what had happened but my gut instinct tells me it'll be clear and this will be an emotional issue.

I second the vet review followed by a behaviourist that they’ve recommended. I do believe that the worse thing you can do to a dog who’s nervous for any reason if allow other people to stroke them (my youngest child is the same - she’s lovely and friendly when she’s feeling confident but if she’s anxious then she finds unbearable if even people she knows try and interact with her and don’t give her space.) Personally I never interact with someone else’s dog unless the dog approaches me first and always ask the owners permission to stroke any dog that does come up to me as dogs are individuals too. But others don’t view it like that unfortunately. I remember a friend saying that someone has gently suggested she ask before she lets her toddler rush up to strangers’s dogs and hug them. She was all “but my child loves dogs!” I asked her how her child would respond if a strange person came up and grabbed them in a hug and why should a dog react any differently to a stranger than a child? She realised she’d never thought of dogs as individuals with their own feelings before.

Some dogs will happily interact with strangers in the same way some children would happily do the same, a lot of dogs will tolerate strangers stroking them but don't particularly enjoy it. Some dogs don’t like go at all. Possibly your dog has always been one that merely tolerates so it could take something small to make the change you've mentioned but as pp have mentioned, the first thing to do with a behaviour change is to get medical causes checked out.

Personally I don’t see that working on getting her to tolerate other people stroking her if she doesn’t like it is the way to go. She clearly doesn’t like it for some reason now even if she did before. So I would work on getting people to leave her alone. Our dog is a little anxious but not yet aggressive with it. I never move him or let the kids move from his bed, so if he’s feeling anxious he takes himself in there as he knows it’s a safe place and we will leave him be there unless he rolls over and asks for a tummy tickle. if he’s feeling too anxious to come, I’ll see if squeaky a toy from another room or see if an offer of a treat is enough to change his mind from feeling anxious. Otherwise I wait till he’s ready by himself.

Will your dog tolerate a yellow “I’m anxious, please give me space” jacket?

@DietOrDie thank you, nice to hear something of a success story. I'd be coming from a very different perspective if she was a recent rescue and this occurred, but the change in her is astounding sad
And thank you so much for those links.

I think you've actually got MORE chance of success with a sudden behaviour change than an issue where it's always been like that. This is for two reasons - firstly because long term issues can just be part of a dog's personality (I think mine has always been aloof tbh), and secondly because issues that become embedded are harder to shift.

After we moved house DDog became exceedingly aggressive to visitors. I was scared someone would get bitten - he had to be locked in the bathroom if a tradesman came around. The only person he'd let through the front door was my dad, who he adores.

We had help from a behaviourist and now he is fine with visitors so long as they throw a ball for him(!) I had about 10 people over for a party and he was absolutely fine (though he did get a bit grouchy by 3am when a drunk person woke him up, but I could understand that)

PS I've found these quite effective at keeping people from stroking DDog. It helps that it's a really clear instruction, and they'd have to be close enough to read it before they could stroke him anyway.

For the odd person who doesn't see it, it allows a sense of righteous indignation ("can't you read?! Why didn't you ask first? It's basic etiquette and there's a sign to remind you" etc etc)

www.saintroch.co.uk/ask-before-stroking-lead-cover-/-slip-p421.html