Vet behaviour clinic and medication

[SpamhappyTootsie]

Hi, looking for some perspective on this, if possible.

Female Lab, 15 months. Always reserved around people she doesn’t know but once she’s checked them out, a total sweetheart, very friendly.
Since a vet check for a sore eye at 6 months she has started barking whenever she visits. I am aware that this is a warning behaviour, absolutely not minimising it. She had to go in on her own (quite rightly, due to Covid safety) and the behaviour started after that, even though we are now allowed in with her.

We are seeing brilliant results out and about from using a mark and reward regime, asking people not to dive straight at her etc, but the vet visits are still very Barky. She was sedated before her spay admission (Gabapentin and ACP) but adrenalin still overrode that and she barked at the vet so had to be muzzled.

Vet has recommended their in-house confidence sessions with their own nurse. Thought this might be worth a try, no-pressure visits, lots of treats etc. However, while booking it yesterday the nurse said they recommend a sedative for each of the visits, “so she forgets about it afterwards”.
It’s not compulsory but the implication was that I’d be wasting my money without it.

She’s not a dog that can’t be handled at all during a vet visit and if she has to wear a muzzle then so be it. I’m just really not sure about using medication to space her out for familiarization sessions.

I know this is turning into a bit of an essay, but just want to say this is not a vet bashing thread! I’ve used 3 different vets over the years for cats and previous dog and DH worked at one, so I’m totally on board with the fact that behavioural sessions are a Good Thing.
There’s just something about the “well, if you don’t sedate her, it won’t work” and in all their promotion about the Confidence Clinics they make a lot of positive methods used but never once mention sedation.

I haven’t yet checked their qualifications but will be doing so at our assessment appointment.

So to me that shoes poor understanding of learning theory and medication actions - if she “can’t remember” the visit then how can she learn it’s a good thing?

At the spay visit she was so wound up that she roared right through the pre-med, so it would be logical to expect exactly the same fear/ reactivity response this time unless something changes.

Usually that will be an effective pre-med so they are not in such a total panic that they can absorb no learning.

I would let them do what they are undertaking to do, but if you're not sure, have a chat with one of the vets or look elsewhere.

I have a feeling that the nurse did not word that statement exactly correctly or that you misinterpreted it a bit. Just clarify that.

You've got a lot of years to go with this animal so it's important to try and get things right.

Thank you both.
@SupposeItDoesnt that’s my take on it. She started off really well and they ran free visits for weigh-ins, handling, checks etc where she was fine. Tootled in happily alone with them, gave them a fuss goodbye. Then the eye visit, where the vet came out to get her, reached straight down with a big Hello!, then obviously had to examine her eye and put drops in it. Behaviour reinforced by same vet at check up, so now she’s on high alert at every visit.

@villainousbroodmare she definitely said that, but I will clarify at assessment visit. They are a good vet, I’m not knocking them, but I’m not sure I’ve got a dog with stress so embedded they need to be zonked out to have a sniff round the consultation room.
Totally agree with the lot of years to go, so need to get it right.

No, I don't think is right at all. What she is talking about I believe, would be the use of diazepam? This can be used when carrying out a desensitisation and counter conditioning program if you over step the dogs comfort zone and they react anxiously/defensively. For example, you are training a dog reactive dog not to bark at other dogs. One step of the plan is to reward the dog for a different command such as 'watch me' while the other dog is a metre away. If during that time someone comes along with an off lead dog who runs right up to your dog and causes it to bark thendiazepam could be used to block the short term memory so the dog doesn't remember that the plan was interrupted and stays at the stage of carrying out the 'watch me' command at a metre away from the other dog instead of having to start from scratch at say 3 metres away. What it sounds like she is proposing is to block the short term memory for every visit where really under these circumstances it would only be applicable to use it if say your dog had to have veterinary treatment before she had had enough sessions with the nurses that she was completely relaxed at the vets. What she needs to do is devise a step by step plan which is done at the dogs pace so she doesn't get anxious or barky at any stage. For example, reward for calm behaviour by you or the nurse wile in the car park outside the vets, stage 2, reward for calm behaviour by you or the nurse while in the doorway at the vets, 3, reward for calm behaviour in waiting room, 4, reward for calm behaviour in consulting room, 5, reward for calm behaviour while being examined with stethoscope etc etc. The dogs body language should be monitored at all times for signs of anxiety such as lip licking, yawning etc and if these are displayed then go back a stage until none are seen. Sorry for the long post but it doesnt sound as if the nurse has a sound grip of using the drugs in the correct way to be effective so I would question if she actually knew enough to be carrying out behavioural modification at all.

Oh and also, I'd be checking what sedative she is describing as the use of acp in anxious dogs can over time increase their anxiety as they still feel anxious but are unable to react. That's why it's use is no longer recommended for firework phobic dogs. I would imagine she is talking about diazepam but just wanted to give a heads up about acp.

@Newuser82 that’s it exactly! She wouldn’t say what medication it would be, but that she would give me a leaflet about it at assessment.
When they suggested the Confidence Clinics it was sold as “as many sessions as it takes for your dog to feel comfortable” for £50, but turns out it’s 6 sessions maximum and £25 for assessment.
I’d pay for as many individual sessions as it took tbh, with tiny, tiny steps building up to desired result. That’s how we train for everything else and how we trained our last dog. All positives, move away from negatives until comfortable.
So yeah, she’d be chilled when medicated, but back to when she’s not….?

I read that about ACP, but was prepared to use it as a one off to get her as comfortably as possible through to the spay.
I’m just thinking my options are:
Muzzle for vet visits.
Or
Change vets, see if that has the reset value and maybe pay for acclimatisation visits there instead.

Yes, it sounds like you have the right approach so don't let anyone do anything that you aren't completely comfortable with. And for them to charge that much.. I was a veterinary nurse (a long time ago but still) and we used to do this all the time for free? At both practices that I worked for.

Tbf, they did a lot of free sessions in the first 6 months, but not with me in the building, so of limited effect without owner there to provide the stable base for mark and reward.
I don’t mind paying for their time, but it needs to be as effective as possible and in line with positive training methods. I do ‘get’ the strategy behind the diazepam use, though, to some extent, but I’m not keen.

Acp is a commonly used pre Mrs so I'd not be hugely worried about it's use in those circumstances. Just the use of it as a behavioural modification drug.

@SpamhappyTootsie

Tbf, they did a lot of free sessions in the first 6 months, but not with me in the building, so of limited effect without owner there to provide the stable base for mark and reward. I don’t mind paying for their time, but it needs to be as effective as possible and in line with positive training methods. I do ‘get’ the strategy behind the diazepam use, though, to some extent, but I’m not keen.

Yes as you do wonder how relaxed she was there without you. Good luck and please just shout if I can help any further.

I’m an RVN and I’ve never heard of this. Are you sure she wasn’t talking about an anxiety reducing medication?
Sometimes medicating with an anti anxiety type drug can help as it’s very difficult for dogs to learn and retain information when stressed.

I would also considering sedating if it was mine for any stressful or painful procedure (not just a mooch around the consult!) that caused the dog stress, otherwise it can just trigger the fear all over again and all your hard work would be undone.

If it was mine I would work on muzzle desensitisation at home and take her in for any treatments muzzled so it’s not a big thing. There’s nothing at all wrong with muzzles and I wish the stigma around them would go!

As a bit of a tangent to the thread I sometimes see posts from owners saying shock horror my dog was muzzled at the vets What is the issue about staff protecting themselves against being bitten especially with a scared or nervous dog, it does not hurt the dog in any way.
I would say I muzzle a large proportion of dogs because I value my body parts.
I don’t mean you directly in this OP…just in general!

Poor dog. Just wanted to echo what @Newuser82 has stated. I have been registered with 2 vets over the last few years, and in both cases, they told me to bring the pups/ dogs in ad hoc and the vet nurse/ receptionist made a fuss of them, gave them a treat, let them wander around and have a sniff; also offered free weigh-ins.
Both dogs ( labs) head straight to the scales as soon as we go in these days.
Maybe speak to another vet?

@Newuser82

Acp is a commonly used pre Mrs so I'd not be hugely worried about it's use in those circumstances. Just the use of it as a behavioural modification drug.

Pre med 🙈

There is no way on earth that I would use sedatives in a desensitising situation.

The whole point is that you are working under threshold. IF in the time you are cc and desentising your dog does need treatment then a discussion about sedatives could be had so that you do not regress on any work done.

Your sessions should be including your dog going into rooms that they have not been in before and building a positive association with them - (If treatment is needed in during this then that should take place in the room that has not been used for behavioural work)

I always ask my vet to do general checks etc on the floor and if they need anythig done that they may not like eg injections, eye drops etc then they stand on their special mat. This means the dogs are totally relaxed for 98% of the visit and then just know for a short period(when on the mat) that it will be uncomfortable. This alone brings stress levels down hugely.

Look and see if there is a fearfree vet practices near you - they are generally great at helping with these issues.

fear free vets

Thank you all so much, you’ve helped pinpoint why I feel so uneasy about it, even while understanding the rationale behind medicating. It’s really not going to be the solution for my dog.
Honestly, anyone can handle her once that initial reticence has been over come and it takes as little as 30 seconds in many cases. With some people, no time at all. Repeated, under threshold exposure is the key, I’m sure.

Realistically, I’d like her to go in, be weighed, say Hi! to the nurse/receptionist/vet.
She might never be a dog comfortable with invasive procedures like temp taking and that’s fine. I’d be ok with muzzling in those circumstances and Housebears I agree with you. If there’s any question at all a dog might snap then it’s in the staff’s interests and hers to prevent that. Would also help for emergencies when you don’t have the luxury of ‘proper’ introductions.
I’m not even against sedation as such. It was a good solution pre-spay.

@PollyRoulllson thank you for the link. There is another vet in the area which I’ve used before. Much smaller team, so fewer people for her to get used to. I only chose the current one because recommendations were good and they have a large car park, which was ideal for outside consultations during Covid (other vet has very limited parking). I will see how the sessions go without meds and if it looks like they want to rush it I’ll just politely decline and see if I can change vet.

Just a quick update. Assessment this morning and my dog is a very quick learner, apparently By the end of the session, which involved a walk and lots of kibble, she was really keen to fuss the vet nurse, but only minimal attention back, so as not to overwhelm her or make her change her mind. Lickimat outside helped settle her afterwards and I was able to have a conversation with the nurse, which I haven’t been able to do previously without a lot of barking.
Agreed to do the course without medication, no pushing to use it.
Aim of the sessions is to enable her to choose to do what she becomes comfortable with, which hopefully involves a consulting room and touch. Will just go back to whichever step means no stress signals.
Quite impressed with the whole approach.

Good stuff. I thought it might work out simpler than it seemed when you posted first.

Glad it went well. Hopefully onwards and upwards.