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If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

luxating patella

33 replies

jujuho · 28/02/2022 14:55

Hi, my 3 year old frenchie has a luxating patella grade 3. I am petrified for her to be put under anesthetic (many frenchies pass away ). We have been referred via our normal vet to another in Leeds, Franks. I am supposed to be taking her on wednesday this week, but I just dont know what to do. Someone has suggested Hydrotherapy, but does this work to fix a grade 3? I'm just so worried, shes like my child. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

OP posts:
WetRainbowRoses · 05/03/2022 21:07

And my question was why are people still supporting the breeding of suffering dogs?
I just don’t think a thread on a condition endemic to pretty much all small dog breeds and present in larger ones too really necessitated such a reply.

Sure ignore that if you like, but trying to suggest that the risk of patellar luxation (and the risks of surgery to fix it) is distinct from all of the other issues this breed faces is disingenuous. It is absolutely related to extreme confirmation
But the OPs dog’s Patella luxation is probably not related to its confirmation...
Sometimes PL can be a result of bowed legs and yes, Frenchies are often a little bow legged but the breeds with the highest rates of PL are not bow legged. Nor heavy set. Infact, apart from being small, they are not extreme at all really.
PL is very common in small breeds, just as hip dysplasia is very common in large breeds.
It’s genetic, partly environmental (like dysplasia) and we don’t know the mode of inheritance and while I get that Frenchies are not particularly healthy overall, I really don’t think you can blame PL on their build here.

If you don't consider miniaturisation of dog breeds to be extreme then that's up to you. But has it never occurred to you that there's a common reason that medial PL occurs disproportionately in toy breeds?
Right, and the high rates of hip and/or elbow dysplasia in larger dogs?
Are they all extreme too?

I don’t actually as it happens support ‘extreme’ breeding.
I’m opposed to flattened brachycephalic faces. And overly short legs. And overly long backs. And sloped backs. And droopy eyes. And excessive wrinkling. And so on.

I sought out a working line for my first dog purely because they tend to be healthier and for my second I chose a puppy out of parents bigger than average and with less pronounced/extreme heads than the breed standard ‘norm’ again out of health concerns.

I’m not denying any of what you’ve said re the health issues of the French bulldog.
What I am saying is that just as hip/elbow dysplasia is endemic in many medium to large breeds and can’t really be tied down to any one cause, patella luxation also is endemic in small breeds and also can’t be tied to any one cause. Aside from both being ‘genetic’ but we don’t actually know what gene/s and how either disease is inherited.

The only real common factor for PL is small size (usually) and the only real common factor for H/ED is medium to large size (usually).

The build of the dogs doesn’t really come into it, Yorkies for example are very different to Frenchies in confirmation, they are light weight, proportional and not normally bow legged.
Yet PL is common in both.

The breeds you mention are all extreme conformations in terms of size
Because patella luxation is almost exclusively seen in little dogs!
Just as Hip/Elbow dysplasia is almost exclusively seen in medium and bigger dogs.
Are Labradors extreme in size?
What about Springers?

KidneyBeans · 05/03/2022 21:14

Because patella luxation is almost exclusively seen in little dogs!

Which exactly supports my point that it's a disease of extreme conformations - extreme small size

Which 'extreme' is your odd comparator of HD associated with? Confused
You seem to be confusing conformational risks with genetic/breed related risks. They aren't the same.

And unless you're the thread police i couldn't care less whether you think pointing out the extreme suffering this breed experiences is 'warranted' or not.
Suffering is a reality for these dogs. Ignoring that isn't helpful

WetRainbowRoses · 05/03/2022 21:36

Which exactly supports my point that it's a disease of extreme conformations - extreme small size
There isn’t a dog breed alive that doesn’t have some known inherited diseases.
Just because a dog is small in size doesn’t mean they are ‘extreme’. Not in my opinion anyway.
What even is a ‘non extreme’ size for a dog?
Springer size?
Greyhound size?

Which 'extreme' is your odd comparator of HD associated with? confused
You seem to be confusing conformational risks with genetic/breed related risks. They aren't the same

Neither dysplasia or patella luxation is caused by the dogs build/conformation.

Both diseases are genetic but we don’t know the specific genes at play or the mode of inheritance.
We also don’t know to what extent environment plays a role in both diseases.

The point I’m trying to make is that what we do know is both diseases are endemic in a certain size - PL in small breeds, H/ED is medium + breeds.
Neither disease is particularly linked to the dogs build.
Both ‘extreme’ small dogs like Pugs and French Bulldogs and ‘non extreme’ small dogs like jack russells and Yorkshire terriers get PL.

Both ‘extreme’ medium + dogs like St Bernard’s and English Bulldogs get H/ED and ‘non extreme’ medium + dogs like Springer spaniels and Labradors get H/ED.

I get what you are saying about Frenchies being very unhealthy, I agree that too.
But the dog doesn’t have LP because it’s a french bulldog with short, possibly bowed legs, heavy set body, corkscrew tail, brachycephalic face.
It has LP because LP is endemic in small breeds, it’s genetic and we don’t know how it’s inherited so it’s hard to breed out.
Even if you neutered all French bulldogs tomorrow you’d still see huge rates of dogs with PL because it’s in such a variety of breeds of all shapes.

And unless you're the thread police i couldn't care less whether you think pointing out the extreme suffering this breed experiences is 'warranted' or not.
Suffering is a reality for these dogs. Ignoring that isn't helpful

Oookay. Um. I don’t agree with breeding unhealthy dogs...
I thought I made that quite clear in my last comment so I truly have no clue what you are talking about here.
I’m not ignoring their suffering.
Quite the opposite.
I don’t believe they should be bred in their current form.

I’m literally just saying that for Patella Luxation, that is a disease that affects so many small breeds, of all sorts of different shapes, that that is one disease you can’t really blame on their build.

KidneyBeans · 05/03/2022 21:49

Just because a dog is small in size doesn’t mean they are ‘extreme’. Not in my opinion anyway.

How are you defining extreme? Confused
Toy breeds are pretty much the dictionary definition of extreme, just as giant breeds are.

Free roaming dogs that respond to environmental selection pressures are functionally fit, well proportioned and usually about 10-12kg in weight

KidneyBeans · 05/03/2022 21:50

Both diseases are genetic but we don’t know the specific genes at play or the mode of inheritance.

Then how do you know they are genetic?

WetRainbowRoses · 05/03/2022 22:11

Free roaming dogs that respond to environmental selection pressures are functionally fit, well proportioned and usually about 10-12kg in weight
Okay, so you think all dogs bred should be around the 10 - 12kg mark in weight, proportional and free from exaggeration?
Not agreeing or disagreeing, just checking I’ve understood correctly.

Then how do you know they are genetic?
Because both diseases are poly genetic conditions.
It’s been proven both are inherited and that multiple genes are responsible but we don’t know which specific genes or how they are passed down.
It isn’t as simple as dog with HD or PL x dog with HD or PL produces some or all pups with HD or PL.

Both diseases can skip generations, two dogs with 0.0 scored knees can sometimes produce pups with PL for example.

We also don’t know to what extent environment is responsible in both conditions.
There is some evidence for example to say that being overweight in puppyhood increases the risk that a puppy that has inherited the genes for H/ED or PL will go on to show symptoms of the condition.

There is no DNA test for either condition, only screening - x Ray for H/ED or a manual feel of the knees for PL.

it’s possible that a dog may have inherited H/ED or PL but because the environment was right eg they were kept slim, they weren’t allowed heavy impact activity like jumping, good diet etc they ‘appear’ not to have developed the condition but produce pups with it.
Both diseases are hard to get rid of.

KidneyBeans · 05/03/2022 22:20
  • Okay, so you think all dogs bred should be around the 10 - 12kg mark in weight, proportional and free from exaggeration? Not agreeing or disagreeing, just checking I’ve understood correctly.*

No. I'm saying that breeds that differ significantly from that normal are, by definition extreme.

It’s been proven both are inherited and that multiple genes are responsible
How? It's perfectly possibly for diseases to be inherited and functionally problematic rather than as a result of specific allele inheritance. How do we know the difference

WetRainbowRoses · 05/03/2022 22:25

How? It's perfectly possibly for diseases to be inherited and functionally problematic rather than as a result of specific allele inheritance. How do we know the difference
I’m sorry but the wording here has confused me, I’m not sure of the question?

Do you mean a disease inherited but is only a problem because the dog is built in an abnormal way? Like short legs for example?
Vs a disease that is inherited and a problem regardless of the dogs conformation?

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