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Banned dog breeds in the UK

91 replies

DerektheGoose · 21/01/2022 15:50

Where I live there are a few people with Pit Bull terriers ie they openly admit they are pure Pit Bull and cost thousands of pounds. Are they no longer banned then?

OP posts:
naxos · 30/07/2023 15:27

I guess hit XL bullies will holler!

monsteramunch · 30/07/2023 15:59

BullyLover · 30/07/2023 12:44

It’s hard for me to agree when I’ve seen Staffys and XL’s stay and watch kids/babies keeping them safe for hours on their own.

Anyone who leaves any child alone with a dog that could easily overpower them (if the dog for whatever reason attacked them) 'for hours on end' is irresponsible as fuck mate, to be honest.

Let alone a breed a child would have zero chance of fighting off if they did get spooked / the child teased them / the dog had a medical episode that caused them to bite etc.

monsteramunch · 30/07/2023 16:02

This reply has been deleted

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I mean you couldn't be living up to a shitty stereotype more mate 😬

And it doesn't matter how 'macho' you are, if a fully grown XL bully lunges and bites you, you simply don't have the muscle mass or force necessary to overpower their jaw strength.

Corgiowner · 30/07/2023 16:34

Genuine questions.
Do you really think that at 6ft 110 kg and even with the added benefit of being a “trained fighter” you could stop one of these dogs if it chose to attack your child you or your neighbour?
Personally I’m sceptical if it was that easy then why would the police and army use dogs in combatitive situations?
Secondly do you feel comfortable even having to make that statement? I own two dogs and there’s lots of things I think and worry about e.g. one of mine would chase sheep given a split second chance so I’m constantly on the look out for sheep in unexpected places, another is getting old and his sight is going I worry about he will manage. But I never feel I need to worry or think “could I restrain either if the attacked me or my neighbour or a child?” No one has ever been killed by either of my two dog breeds, neither have the facial musculature to inflict a very very serious bite in fact one struggles to chew dried dog biscuits!

mocktail · 30/07/2023 16:50

I'm glad you're responsible enough to keep your dog on a lead whenever you're in public. However wouldn't it be nicer (for you and the dog) to have a breed you could safely let off the lead?

GSDmom · 30/07/2023 18:25

Corgiowner · 30/07/2023 16:34

Genuine questions.
Do you really think that at 6ft 110 kg and even with the added benefit of being a “trained fighter” you could stop one of these dogs if it chose to attack your child you or your neighbour?
Personally I’m sceptical if it was that easy then why would the police and army use dogs in combatitive situations?
Secondly do you feel comfortable even having to make that statement? I own two dogs and there’s lots of things I think and worry about e.g. one of mine would chase sheep given a split second chance so I’m constantly on the look out for sheep in unexpected places, another is getting old and his sight is going I worry about he will manage. But I never feel I need to worry or think “could I restrain either if the attacked me or my neighbour or a child?” No one has ever been killed by either of my two dog breeds, neither have the facial musculature to inflict a very very serious bite in fact one struggles to chew dried dog biscuits!

Fact of the matter is, any dog of a large size in full attack mode isn't going to be easy to restrain. Labs have been known to kill, they don't have the same level of aggression (statistically) but they have the ability. Are you saying that people shouldn't feel comfortable owning a large breed in general?

Corgiowner · 30/07/2023 19:41

@GSDmom nope I’m not saying that I questioning BullyLovers* assertion that he can over power his XL bully if it attacked and also the fact that he even feels a needs to make this claim to me it indicates that the chance of it attacking are at the very least on the back of his mind. As I said above there are things that I think/worry about my dogs but never “Could I overpower them should they attack me?”.
I worked on farms and with horse most of my life I know if the chips were down I couldn’t overpower a cow or horse should they choose to attack neither could any human I don’t go on farming forums making this claim because I don’t need too it’s bloody obvious. Therefore when you handle large animals like cows and horses you know this and act accordingly and also according to the situation. And as every farmer know you never trust a bull however docile it may appear.

Jenzine · 01/08/2023 18:07

@GSDmom When’s the last time a Labrador killed someone in the UK? Never. It’s never happened here, and the cases that pop up in America are suspect because how many times have you seen YouTube shorts videos of people trying to pass a pit bull off as a “silver Labrador” at its first vet visit? I’ve seen many.
Untrained, any dog can pull 4 times their own weight. @Corgiowner is right to be sceptical of @BullyLover asserting that they are fully capable of physically controlling a breed that can weigh 60kg fully grown. Unless you’re upwards of 200kg, you literally can’t. The moment that dog decides it wants something more than it wants to listen to you, it’s fully out of your hands whatever happens next.
The fact is, certain breeds/mixes crop up on the fatal dog attacks list over and over again. We were averaging 3 deaths a year for the last 20 years, and since 2020, we’ve had the usual 3 assorted breeds (gsd, chow, Akita, Rottweiler, etc… the usual suspects, whether cross, mixed, or single breed dogs) plus an anomalous 7 extra deaths attributed to mostly XL bullys and the occasional American bulldog or other bully/bull breed.
The rise in fatal dog attacks does not align with the rise in dog ownership, or it would be an across the board increase, and would not be one “breed” with a minuscule population overall, contributing to over half the excess anomalous deaths.

nalabae · 05/08/2023 02:29

American bullies are wonderful dogs, doopy stupid I love them and wish I owned one. I can't as my place is to small. My dad has two..
It's amazing the amount of people who talk S on things they have no idea about just read on the daily mail and follow like cattle.

nalabae · 05/08/2023 02:39

Jenzine · 01/08/2023 18:07

@GSDmom When’s the last time a Labrador killed someone in the UK? Never. It’s never happened here, and the cases that pop up in America are suspect because how many times have you seen YouTube shorts videos of people trying to pass a pit bull off as a “silver Labrador” at its first vet visit? I’ve seen many.
Untrained, any dog can pull 4 times their own weight. @Corgiowner is right to be sceptical of @BullyLover asserting that they are fully capable of physically controlling a breed that can weigh 60kg fully grown. Unless you’re upwards of 200kg, you literally can’t. The moment that dog decides it wants something more than it wants to listen to you, it’s fully out of your hands whatever happens next.
The fact is, certain breeds/mixes crop up on the fatal dog attacks list over and over again. We were averaging 3 deaths a year for the last 20 years, and since 2020, we’ve had the usual 3 assorted breeds (gsd, chow, Akita, Rottweiler, etc… the usual suspects, whether cross, mixed, or single breed dogs) plus an anomalous 7 extra deaths attributed to mostly XL bullys and the occasional American bulldog or other bully/bull breed.
The rise in fatal dog attacks does not align with the rise in dog ownership, or it would be an across the board increase, and would not be one “breed” with a minuscule population overall, contributing to over half the excess anomalous deaths.

More people kill people then dogs.
More cars kill people then dogs.
Yet ban all American bullies because 9 out of the 1000s owned in the country have killed people

That's logical

(To cattle)

nalabae · 05/08/2023 02:41

Corgiowner · 30/07/2023 19:41

@GSDmom nope I’m not saying that I questioning BullyLovers* assertion that he can over power his XL bully if it attacked and also the fact that he even feels a needs to make this claim to me it indicates that the chance of it attacking are at the very least on the back of his mind. As I said above there are things that I think/worry about my dogs but never “Could I overpower them should they attack me?”.
I worked on farms and with horse most of my life I know if the chips were down I couldn’t overpower a cow or horse should they choose to attack neither could any human I don’t go on farming forums making this claim because I don’t need too it’s bloody obvious. Therefore when you handle large animals like cows and horses you know this and act accordingly and also according to the situation. And as every farmer know you never trust a bull however docile it may appear.

So according to your logic let's also ban cows and horses since they cant be overpowered lol

Cattle really are brain-dead.

fullbloom87 · 05/08/2023 02:42

They are banned and sometimes the authorities will come and measure them and evaluate to see if they are indeed a pit bull. I watched a program on it and I think if the dog matches up to the size of a pit bull they can be taken away.
Obviously a lot are Staffies but like with any mixed breed you can breed from bigger staffies etc that will give it more of a pit bull look.

TempleHill · 05/08/2023 18:06

Jenzine · 01/08/2023 18:07

@GSDmom When’s the last time a Labrador killed someone in the UK? Never. It’s never happened here, and the cases that pop up in America are suspect because how many times have you seen YouTube shorts videos of people trying to pass a pit bull off as a “silver Labrador” at its first vet visit? I’ve seen many.
Untrained, any dog can pull 4 times their own weight. @Corgiowner is right to be sceptical of @BullyLover asserting that they are fully capable of physically controlling a breed that can weigh 60kg fully grown. Unless you’re upwards of 200kg, you literally can’t. The moment that dog decides it wants something more than it wants to listen to you, it’s fully out of your hands whatever happens next.
The fact is, certain breeds/mixes crop up on the fatal dog attacks list over and over again. We were averaging 3 deaths a year for the last 20 years, and since 2020, we’ve had the usual 3 assorted breeds (gsd, chow, Akita, Rottweiler, etc… the usual suspects, whether cross, mixed, or single breed dogs) plus an anomalous 7 extra deaths attributed to mostly XL bullys and the occasional American bulldog or other bully/bull breed.
The rise in fatal dog attacks does not align with the rise in dog ownership, or it would be an across the board increase, and would not be one “breed” with a minuscule population overall, contributing to over half the excess anomalous deaths.

Agree completely. It is a risk to everyone. The numbers don't lie. One breed responsible for most fatal dog attacks recently. I can't see why people have to choose a breed that can kill someone in split second if it chooses to. They need to ban this breed completely.
No one has been killed by a lab or chihuahua.

TempleHill · 05/08/2023 18:14

For people without a subscription:
Blame the breed, not the owner: the truth about American Bully XLs
1 August 2023, 7:43am

My dog is great with children, I will give her that. The family pet and I don’t really get on, and since I last wrote on the subject of ‘Twiggy’ I’m afraid there has been no great budding human–canine love story; I won’t be played by Owen Wilson in the biopic of her life any time soon. She is warm and affectionate around people but has a relentless desire to hunt – rats, pigeons, squirrels and mice have all on occasion fallen prey, much to the distress of some members of the public.

This ends up causing great inconvenience because Twiggy regularly gets trapped or lost while out hunting, and we have to waste hours looking for her. On one occasion in Epping Forest we spent ages digging her out of a massive hole she’d got herself stuck in, nobly assisted by a passing Weimaraner which had instinctively come to help a fellow dog in distress. After some struggle we finally lifted Twiggy out, and the Weimaraner immediately started trying to hump her.

Twiggy regularly wakes us up with her incessant barking because there are foxes in the alleyway behind us; but when, last November, a burglar broke into our back garden to steal two bikes, she gently slept through the night without a care in the world. She just has no interest in human threats and clearly doesn’t feel that it’s her responsibility.

Dog breeds have different natures, yet the leading authorities in the British dog world seem to be in denial about it

It’s not the dog’s fault, of course; it’s just the way she is. My wife has done a very good job of training Twiggy, but she is a Portuguese Podengo – a sighthound noted for its ‘less domesticated’ behaviour and its desire to hunt. It is, however, a loving family pet if you don’t mind the occasional afternoon spent wandering around the woods calling her name.

Rather than objecting to a dog out of principle, I probably should have done more to choose a breed that suited my temperament. We once had a Labrador staying with us, a dog with no interest in attacking any animal and who just wanted to lie on the sofa eating carbohydrates, very much more my spirit animal; in fact it had such a compulsive eating problem that I was forced to retreat to the shed to have my meals away from him.

Dog breeds have different natures, something that would seem self-obviously true and yet which today the leading authorities in the British dog world seem to be in denial about, in particular when it comes to one of the unspoken trends of recent years – the huge increase in dog attacks.

This spike in dog-bites-man violence has led to a 50 per cent increase in hospital admissions for dog bites over ten years, the biggest rise being among children under the age of four. Overall the number of fatalities has gone from an average of 3.3 in the 2000s to 10 last year, while dog attacks have risen recently from 16,000 in 2018 to 22,000 in 2022, and hospitalisations have almost doubled from 4,699 in 2007 to 8,819 in 2021/22.

The underlying story behind this escalation of violence is that much of it is the work of just one breed: the American Bully. And as we enter the summer holidays, the peak period for dog attacks, it’s worth pondering why the experts in the dog world are in such denial about the issue.

Public awareness of the American Bully problem has grown in recent months, spurred by some especially horrific attacks, as well as a widely-read article by legal academic and YouTuber Lawrence Newport. Lawrence looked at the data on dog attacks and observed that ‘a notable pattern emerges. In 2021, two of the four UK fatalities were from a breed known as the American Bully XL. In 2022, six out of ten were American Bullies. In 2023, so far all fatalities appear to have been American Bullies.’

There are dogs I would never allow my children to go near under any circumstances – namely the American Bully XL.

American Bullies, Newport explains, ‘are a breed resulting from modern mixes of the American Pitbull Terrier. They are known for very high muscle mass, biting power, and impressive strength, and come in several variations. Those that are bred for the greatest strength, weight and size are known as a part of the American Bully XL variety.’

Pitbulls are banned in Britain for a good reason, and in the US are responsible for ‘60–70 per cent of dog fatalities’; yet under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 ‘the American Bully XL is currently permitted.’

What is surprising, Newport writes, is that ‘if you argue these dogs are dangerous, you will get a flood of comments from people…saying it’s the owner’s fault, not the dog’s. You might even be thinking this yourself, right now. But this is wrong. While many Brits would contend that ‘Guns American Bully XL’s don’t kill people, people do’, the reality is different.

‘Labradors retrieve. Pointers point. Cocker Spaniels will run through bushes, nose to the ground, looking as if they are tracking or hunting even when just playing – even when they have never been on a hunt of any kind. This is not controversial. Breeds have traits. We’ve bred them to have them.’

Pitbulls were created for bull-baiting, and when that was banned, they came to be bred to hunt down rats in a locked pen. ‘This required more speed, so they were interbred with terriers to make Pitbull Terriers. In addition to this, they began to be used for dog fighting: bred specifically to have aggression towards other dogs, and to be locked in a pit to fight (some are still used for this today). These were dogs likely kept in cages, away from humans, and bred for their capacity to earn money for their owners by winning fights. These were not dogs bred for loyalty to humans, these were dogs bred for indiscriminate, sustained and brutal violence contained within a pit.’

One reason for the widespread denial about breed violence might be simple animal sentimentality, a particular trait of the British. Newport cites the case of two American Bully types recently shot by police, an incident which led to a million signatures on a petition calling for the officers to be prosecuted, even though the dogs had attacked other dogs and had previously attacked at least one person: ‘Not only this but the woman who had her dogs attacked by the pair said she was “mortified” that they had been shot and had been “crying ever since”. There are plans for a nation-wide vigil for the dogs.’

As Newport points out, it is not a dog’s fault that it’s been bred for certain traits, but it also doesn’t help those buying puppies to pretend that they are dealing with a blank state, for ‘potentially good owners are left at a severe disadvantage by the statements of advocates for Pitbulls and American Bullies’.

They are told ‘that American Bullies are naturally good with kids and family, that they are naturally non-violent, and that this isn’t a risk. Positive descriptions of American Bullies (and their XL variety), de-emphasising their violent tendencies, run the very real risk of obfuscating future owners of the traits in the breed and thereby stopping those owners from correctly understanding and controlling their dog.’

There have been plenty of diligent dog owners who nevertheless found themselves in danger. ‘Whether it’s an experienced dog walker that warned others to stay away to save themselves whilst she was mauled to death, or the killing of an experienced dog and cat kennel owner described as “the most caring man”, or a mother that had the American Bully for a week before it killed her baby by taking it directly from her arms. It is not the owners. It is the breed.’

Newport suggests that the American Bully XL be added to the Dangerous Dogs Act, something within the Government’s remit, and he may succeed; the policing minister has recently said that banning the Bully is an option. This would almost certainly save lives, and there is evidence that anti-Pitbull laws actually work. On the other hand, he’s up against the most powerful force in British society – animal lovers – added to which there is widespread denial about breed differences, even among experts.

Pitbulls are banned in Britain for a good reason

Newport writes that ‘the UK Kennel Club considers the Dangerous Dogs Act to be unacceptable insofar as it bans any breeds, arguing instead that “no breed of dog is inherently dangerous” and, instead…“any dog in the wrong hands has the potential to be dangerous”’.

The RSPCA, arguably the most well-known and powerful charity in Britain, recently stated that ‘focussing on the type of dog, rather than their individual actions, is a flawed and failing approach. Dog aggression is highly complex, and taking a breed-focused approach is fundamentally flawed.’

The charity also campaigns against breed-specific legislation because it is both an injustice for the animals and because dog bites have continued to go up since the Dangerous Dogs Act, one of many examples where the British dog lobby uses similar logic to the American gun lobby.

Contrary to what these groups believe, scientist Stuart Ritchie wrote in the i last week that there is considerable evidence of behavioural differences by breed, including one study of 46,000 dogs which showed ‘what you’d expect just from cultural stereotypes: terriers are more aggressive and prone to chase little animals; scent-hounds are extremely trainable, and so on’.

Ritchie wrote that: ‘The claims made by members of the Dog Control Coalition and others shift between breed not being a “reliable” predictor of risk, and it not being a predictor of risk at all. Everyone would agree that breed isn’t a perfect predictor of behaviour – far from it. And everyone would agree that within a breed there can be huge variations in personality. But I don’t know how you can look at the research – flawed as it is – and claim that it has nothing at all to do with how a dog will act, on average.’

Ritchie also found studies suggesting that Pitbulls don’t just bite more children, but also that their bites are far more violent (more often targeted at the face rather than the hands). This is called a ‘myth’ by campaigners, but it could be that their myth-busting is an example of anti-intuition, of experts denying obvious common sense. Where expert pronouncements clearly defy logic, people are often much better off trusting their instincts.

When the horrible death of dog walker Natasha Johnston was first reported there were all sorts of theories about how she was killed by the entire pack, including dachshunds, and that this was explained by some complex canine psychology. This seemed obviously implausible, and indeed the tragic story turned out to be far more predictable – she was most likely killed by her own dog, an American Bully XL.

One theory for why the blank slate rose in popularity is that large numbers of people now grow up in small families and away from nature, and so are blind to the obvious genetic influences on personality. All personality traits are in some way under genetic control, so the effects of breeding the most violent members of a population over successive generations would be huge and self-explanatory. But even in urban environments it’s obvious that some types of dogs are just extremely dangerous by nature.

In a recent report on dog violence, the Daily Mail stated that ‘84 per cent of parents leave their kids unsupervised around their pets’, but this is rather unsurprising; we leave our children unsupervised around Twiggy because, annoying as she is, a Podengo would almost never attack a child. But there are breeds I would feel uncomfortable leaving my kids around if I didn’t know the owners or dogs – Staffies, German Shepherds or Rottweilers, all of which possess great strength and higher levels of aggression. And then there are dogs I would never allow my children to go near under any circumstances – namely the American Bully XL. And for that we shouldn’t automatically blame the people in charge. Sometimes it’s not the owners, it’s the breed.

PinkFlowersBlueVase · 05/08/2023 18:33

In answer to the OP, there are illegal dogs in the country but they'll only be seized and destroyed if reported. No one is proactively going around checking. Someone on my street when I was younger bragged about their pitbull, got reported to the dog warden and it was euthanised. But there aren't as many dog wardens now, and nothing is being done to prevent - action is only taken punitively.

There should be massive action on dog breeders and xl bullies in particular and as fatalities and attacks continue to rise, which they will, eventually there probably will be.

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