Second dog regret

[Calmamongthechaos]

I’ve posted before about issues with puppy not taking to the crate. She’s a collie cross and now 6 months old and was a rescue pup we got at 4 months (accidental litter, was with litter mates until then). We’ve always had rescues as family pets and our second dog is a rescue but not less than 1 year old so have never experienced the puppy phase although all our dogs have been more challenging working breeds/mixes. We’ve worked through mild behaviour issues with other dogs, getting them settled/socialised and obedience training but have never experienced a dog like this and feel it’s too much.

She gets 3 x 30mins walks a day, trick/obedience training daily, meals come in puzzles or snuffle mats. We makes sure she naps/sleeps but no matter what we do she does not stop. She is constantly barking/yelling at us or trying to destroy something in the house (although she’s limited to where she can go). She will not leave older dog (who at 3 is still young and playful along) alone. Older dog will correct her when she is a bit much but she carries on and I can see that older dog is very stressed and goes and hides out somewhere else in the house. When they are separated she barks her head off. Sometimes older dog gets a bit of FOMO and joins in and is then suddenly desperate again to play. All meals/snacks are eaten at the dining table with elbows tucked in and one of us gently body blocking while the other eats hoping she will get bored. We praise all the behaviour we like from her but it doesn’t seem to sink in. We are both working from home and it’s driving us crazy. She cannot be left on her own in another room for a second without constant barking even if I just nip to the loo. We are camping out in turns downstairs at night which is no good. Any attempt to move away is unsuccessful. We expected to be in for a tough time but I don’t know if what is going on is temporary or if this is how she is. Given her age I don’t feel we can really up her exercise to the level older dog gets but I’m at my wits end. I’m genuinely wondering what the hell we have done from having one calm well behaved dog who fits in with us so well and we have no issues with (safe in the house, sociable, can be left, not clingy, has an off switch despite his being a high energy dog) to living in an actual mad house and wanting to cry almost everyday. We’ve put off family coming to stay who we haven’t seen for a while because it’s just too much to deal with visitors as well.

For those of you who have gone through the puppy phase for more challenging breeds is this to expected? Will it get better? If there anything more we can do? Beginner obedience classes start for her this week but she’s able to do a lot of what is covered by the looks of things but still feel it will be useful.

I never thought we would be those people wondering if we made a bad decision but this feels like it never improves, not even at a slow pace. Our other dog loves his dog pals and ones that came to stay before but none have been like this. We’re very active and outdoorsy and we always said if older dog was ok for it we would get a second. He’s been incredibly tolerant of her but I can’t help but worry how it’s affecting him as well.

How do we know we’ve made a mistake?

Honestly? I think you are expecting far too much of a six month old dog. I get that the contrast between a 6 month old 'terror' and a mature dog is probably pretty stark but there is nothing you describe that it outside the norm for lots of dogs/breeds.

It will get better and, like much with dogs, it takes calm consistent patience to get there.

If you have a reasonably good dog by the time she is 2 years old you will be doing ok. By 3 years old she will be even better.

But I would also expect this to get a little worse before then (sorry!) as you go through the teenage months. At about 1 year old you may find you turn a corner and instead of it getting worse, it starts to get better.

Which probably explains why, if you've only ever had dogs from 1 year old onwards, this is all coming as a shock .

These months are as much a leap of faith as anything. You put in the time, energy and tears and get very little back, just relying on it providing the right foundation for the mature dog when they get there.

I would also exercise at this age. If she were destined for herding she'd be out and about for large chunks of the day by now. Just not running around madly. As long as she's not forced to exercise and not being 'allowed' to do advance movement repeatedly (e.g. chasing a thrown ball over and over).

In the meantime, you do need to stop your puppy from ruining any chance of a good relationship with your older dog - which means he needs a place and lots of chance to escape. Even if that means she barks. He must be allowed plenty of breaks.

It will, most likely, come good. It'll just feel like a long haul to get there

Some practical advice:

• Mealtimes: there are many ways to deal with this but a couple are..

a) simply keep blocking her; if she nevers gets anything she is likely to eventually give up this behaviour or any hope of dinner food coming her way. This takes iron discipline from you. Anything given to her from the table like this will reinrorce the behaviour.

b) have a pot of treats ready and every couple of minutes toss one into her bed or a nearby mat. At first she will eat it then run back to you for more, but over time she should eventually learn to just sit in her bed waiting for the next treat to land. Why? Because moving is pointless, the treats always arrive in the bed. Over further time you can then slowly reduce treat frequency until she gets one treat at the end of a meal.

Visitors: as much of a pita as it is, it's good practice. Get a light houselead and use that to control her. Only invite over your most tolerant and supportive friends or family.

Barking at you: ignore, ignore, ignore. Or, if you fancy then link barking to something dull such as a short phrase ("thanks dog"). A smart dog will learn barking = that dull thing and give it up, in time. If she's barking now, it's working for her in some way. If it stops working, she will get a bit more persistent with it, then eventually give up.

Nipping to the loo: Just keep doing it and shutting the door. As she ages, this should get easier but don't avoid leaving her for a minute now, because she makes it noisy to do so. Keep at it.

Night time: I'd be trying to work out if she is distressed when you leave, or just demanding. A genuinely distressed dog would get a much more easy ride from me. A dog that is barking because they have learned barking gets them something they want (but don't need) would get pushed a little harder to cope alone. i.e. I might leave them in the room they are going to sleep in, contained by a babygate but set up my bed just the other side of the gate. Once they are used to that, then slowly move my bed away from them over a number of nights.

Aside from all this, the big thing I would be focussing on was building and strengthening my relationship with this dog. An atmosphere of disapproval will only make this harder on you all. Trying to find ways to see the 'fun' in this dog will help greatly.

If any of that sounded disapproving in anyway I really don't mean it to - am typing very fast! Good luck!

One final thought. Rather than (or as well as) obedience classes, think about learning something fun like agility - you can get classes that cater for young dogs so they are not in danger of over stretching thsemselves.

This more active and play-based form of learning still has great benefits of strengthening your relationship and teaching her to focus on you, plus she learns about self control - e.g, waiting foir her turn!

If you can turn learning into a game for you both, this is all so much sweeter.

Sorry, one more final, final thought. I just noticed you got her at 4 months and she's 6 months old now. So that's just 8 weeks you've had her and those 8 weeks happened over the most distruptive time of year (Xmas) and in the worst weather (winter).

This is no time at all. We humans feel the need to see progress within weeks (or even days) but it often takes months and months.

Time, patience, consistency and good humour go a looong way

@SirSniffsAlot thanks so much for these really detailed helpful replies. I am more than happy to have a reality check here as well so please don’t worry about seeming disapproving 🙂

We have another bed for older dog upstairs and he’s trained to sit at a door if he wants through so he lets us know he wants away but also we are keeping an eye as he’s easy to read as to when he is fed up. He’s got toys up there for him and treats so if one of us is up there we can play and do some tricks with him and we pop up regularly to do so. He usually moves about the house during the day to nap so isn’t super attached to a particular spot in the house which helps.

The place we have booked for obedience classes also has other courses including agility so will ask about that! That’s partly why we chose them as we thought she might take to that eventually. I enjoy doing little training drills with her and seeing her little tail wag as she clearly loves it and will happily roll around with her and tug toy but you’re right we need to do more of this and keep on working on our bond. I think we are so in sync with older dog now that is feels like a shock.

She gets off lead on one of her walks, and the other two are sniffy walks, we’re lucky to be near lots of different walks/fields/forest/canals so we mix it up each time. She also gets little town walks with us in the earlier part of the day to get used to our neighbourhood whilst it’s not too busy and we will get a coffee etc, sit on a bench and just watch what’s going on. We have deliberately avoided fetch for now or anything like that to avoid doing too much like you said.

I’m inclined to say the barking is demanding although she will rattle the door or jump up at it. She seems to have two types of barks, one which sounds like a more normal dog bark and the other which is a shrill yelp which she uses when she obvious wants something. The noise feels like it is piercing my brain which I’m sure doesn’t help.

We have taught that she needs to sit if she wants something treat/attention and she does do this to an extent. How consistent she is with this seems to depend on how much she still has energy wise left in the tank and it’s very rare that she is ‘tired’.

Our older dog did this in the beginning having never been left by his previous owners but I suppose he did give up a lot quicker and his issues were severe lack of exercise and mental stimulation as well as socialisation but this was remedied fairly quickly with the routine and making sure his needs where met. He was given up as he was apparently too much. Puppy I suppose is still learning all the older already knew when he came to us at just over 1.

We tried over the Xmas break from work a week of one of us sleeping on the couch, bed in the next room without a crate and door open and anything soft to sit on removed to see if she that would work. She would try and climb onto us and we would gently remove her repeatedly and saying nothing. She did take the hint but was up and down throughout the night so I don’t think she got a good nights sleep (neither did we) but it did show I think that she could cope not being in the same room.

You honestly sound like you are (all) doing very well with a young, bright, energetic dog that's only been with you a few weeks.

My money is that you will look back on this time and laugh at how much 'trouble' she was. In the meantime, focus more on the joy and let the other things just come good with time. And go easy on yourselves - it's as importnant as going easy on the dog.

I am reminded of a family member who struggled in a similar way with a young terrier. He - an otherwise softy who is disposed to dramatic statements - said he gave her 'six months' to shape up or ship out (he would never have actually rehomed her). A few months ago, he broke his heart at having to say goodbye to her at 15 years old, declaring her the best dog he ever knew. He and that dog were as close as anything and they adored each other but the first months were a hard shock.

I'm also reminded of an old saying: if you want a good dog, get a dog; if you want a great one, get a bitch and hope for the best .

Just quickly - we have a similar situation with an older perfect (ish) rescue and a puppy. I question daily whether I did the right thing, but 6 months on (puppy is 8 months) it has also got better every day. Don't get me wrong, the puppy is still a twat but calmer, sleeps more, better trained. Still an oik compared to my old boy who will sleep at my feet all day, but I can see glimpses of the dog my puppy will be.

I think essentially when you've got a direct comparison, it feels shit and like you've ruined everything. But by the time the puppy is mature, you'll have two nice dogs, not just one! Keep up with the training and maybe get a 1:1 if you need techniques, but know that your feelings are normal!

What is she crossed with, or are you not sure?

Sounds like a very collie trait to become obsessed with certain habits.

Is it just the barking? Or is she jumping, biting, ankle nipping...When you say she is destroying, is it chewing furniture, clothing etc?

We’re not 100% sure, we think spaniel (springer) based on colouring/coat/ears although she is more collie height and is a very tall pup. Super sniffy as well which makes me think spaniel. Very confident on the collie part I think. The collie head ‘tick’ is very present!

We’ve never had any biting/ankle chewing thankfully. A couple of attempts to chew fingers in the beginning but as her adult teeth have come through this has stopped. She does try to chew soft furnishings or dig them especially during the mad moments. We try to swap out for one her soft toys but sometimes she is frantic with it. Husband has habit of leaving socks about and they are immediately snapped up (again try to swap for something else and praise when she chooses the right thing to chew!). No pulling clothes but definitely has a huff with us if that makes sense when not getting her way. She has nipped older dog a couple on times on his rear when she has been demanding play.

Jumping is a big problem, on us mostly (the turning around trick is met with shrill barks). At lunch today I took older dog for his walk after I posted here and I was informed by husband on my return that she managed to jump onto the window sill which is three feet off the floor with no other furniture in front. This happened after I left. We’ve agreed behind the baby gate now in other room when one of us leaves, the other asking for a sit and treating when calm.

Collie tail/bum and ruff are often the giveaway (plus the fiendish intelligence!).

She sounds perfect, just exactly what I have been trying to adopt from a shelter for the last 6 months.

@SpankyPankhurst a few collie owners we live near who we see out and about thought collie spaniel cross but they seemed in no doubt on the collie part. A few have asked if she is pure collie also.

@FazedNotPhased thanks for your reply, it’s very reassuring to hear that it’s normal to think what the heck have we done here! Hoping to see glimpses of the dog she will be soon 🤞🏻

She does sound very full on indeed, not sure what the impact of having a pup for a long time with their litter mates might be, a behaviourist would be able to give insight.
Exuding calm and boredom is something i would really try to concentrate on, our collie cross even at 2 never seems to switch of fully even when asleep, and can be up and alert at the slightest noise or movement which might indicate something is on.
A tip I have seen is one of those rubber cage ball type things, filled with rags - this can satisfy the 'stufficide' urge as well as the collie love of movement?

@Ihaventgottimeforthis it’s definitely had some effect. No boundaries/routine and a lot of rough housing probably meant constant excitement for her and zero calm time. That we have another playful dog at home probably makes it harder for her to relax.

My collie x still does get easily over-stimulated - we did agility for a while but he couldn't keep still or quiet, watching the other dogs do their rounds, and gradually worked himself up into a frenzy! He did manage to bring it back down & focus though when it was his turn.
He's the same with canicross now, at 2 years, but his ability to calm himself is improving as he ages.
And the upside of this intensity is an amazing intelligence and keenness to learn. I'm very aware not to overload him and not to under-estimate his ability to remember and to fixate on events, so not creating an obsession that I will then have to break!
I'm sure if you can tolerate these young months she will mature into an amazing pet.

No little kids about whom she can herd?

When she settles down and finds her groove, I promise she will be the best dog you ever had.

Excellent posts from SirSniffsAlot.

When you say she has one off-lead walk each day (in addition to on-lead walks), does that include the chance to run around? My puppy is also 6 months old, also a herding breed, and he really needs to run about like a loon expend his energy with some vigorous exercise. Not for long, just 30 minutes or so, sometimes with a dog friend. He is a much happier and calmer pup when we build this into his daily routine. It makes everything else so much easier.

Will she settle with a Kong or long lasting chew? We started giving our pup a frozen Kong each evening back when he was teething and he still waits for it expectantly. It completely absorbs him and it means we can do other things or have dinner or whatever.

In addition to or as an alternative to puzzles and snuffle mats, can you use some of her kibble from meals as training treats? That can be a great way to bond with her.

@certainshepherdpups yes she does get a chance to run around, if we’ve got our other dog with us a fairly mad game of chase goes on but she does run around like a loon no matter who is there and she is usually bursting to get off lead. If we take them on a more woodland trail they are quite the little explorers together have have a rare old frolic which is really nice to see. I just wonder if, because we got her a bit into puppy hood she’s still not really seeing the benefit of it yet or at least the routine? Our other dog is the same, absolutely needs off lead time to get the energy out.

She does like a Kong, although find the lickimats get a bit more mileage, or she has a chew with lots of little nibs on it we smear with sweet potato and freeze but it’s a similar idea. The snuffle mat seems to be the best overall for a calming (if that’s possible!) effect!

I think we just need to employ some more patience (and gin 😬)!