Any German Shepherd owners out there? Puppy Q.

[Janeandjohnny]

Hello All,

I hope someone can offer some advice on a query I have.

I have done a good bit of work with rescue etc for the past few years and have two rescues currently - a lurcher female and a GSD x female.

I wanted to get a GSD puppy for agility/ tracking as I have a bit more time to spare and can walk/ train daily etc and waited for a pup from a breeder who has working lines. I got a puppy in November. Currently 15 weeks approx, male.

I was fully prepared for how 'full on' they can be, intelligent, need lots of stimulation etc and got set up to start. Puppy was great, very good to train on basics - I had him three weeks when unfortunately he was diagnosed woith a joint issue - septic arthrithis in one front knuckle. This required surgery, etc - quite complex. It meant he was quite sick, missed vaccinations and some socialisation also as he was on very limited exercise.

He is now fully recovered and great. I have him on a pretty good sit, wait and walking well on lead, recall is starting but needs lots more work. I have got a local trainer to do a few sessions at home while he was on limited exercise. This trainer is a working collie specialist so quite into 'working training' - has won a lot and comes recommended. I'm in a bit of a fix now as I need to get him more socialised and am catching up I feel. I have not yet fully introduced him to the other two dogs yet (he is in a puppy pen still). Trainer says he needs to learn to ignore ther dogs but he is increasingly vocal and mad to interact but now that he is 20kg I have a sinking feeling that he is too full on to introduce to the two dogs. They do meet outside when he is on lead but he lunges and barks and they obviously dont want to go near him. I need to get him to be polite with them. He does not want to fight but is super over enthusiastic and probably quite intimidating for other dogs - so no social skills.

I am open to constructive feedback as to how to approach/ resolve.
Heres my current plan:

For the lunging I am getting a hali halter to reduce the lunging as advised by puppy class trainer (see below).

I am going to start doing relaxing outside time with all dogs and him on lead with treats.

I am maybe going to get a muzzle in case he does get too mouthy if he is with my other dogs on walks. Not sure on this.

He is signed up for puppy classes starting Jan 8th which I hope will reduce the enthusiasm and get better on manners. The trainer (not the one above) there is very confident that we can solve this.

My other trainer is quite non commital about introduction - kind of avoiding it and also not keen on over socialisation as there are lots of off lead dogs where I walk ( I do understand that to some extent as he can get reactive I imagine with a bad experience) and I'm not so sure that I agree with the trainer - for me its a key part of having him - that he can live with other dogs in my house and not lunge at other dogs when out etc.

I'm pretty confident on most training and did the sit/ wait/ down and some recall myself while he was recovering. Overall he is a lovely pup but very boisterous. I know he will calm as he matures but wanted any feedback on next steps.

Thanks so much. Apologies for long post.

GSD need really careful socialisation. If in doubt go very very very slowly.

The socialisation period for GSD is different from some other breeds.

Your dog lunging and barking is an over aroused, stressed puppy.

So in all cases you should increase the distance from whatever is causing this reaction.

Personally I would not take the puppy to puppy classes unless the trainer has had a 121 with your dog and is aware of the situation. There needs to be a lot of space in the class for your dog to watch from a distance without reacting and then over time that distance will be decreased.

Do not force interactions to get your dog used to things .

I totally agree with your trainer who is being cautious and not wanting to over socialise your dog. You do need to go carefully or you could have a much harder problem to solve.

So think I want to have positive interactions rather than lots of
interactions.

If you see a calm old dog plodding on the lead this is the dog your dog needs to view from a distance.

If you see lively off lead dogs at the moment these are dogs you want to avoid any interaction with.

Teach your dog a look at that command and reward for noticing the dogs and then increase the distance.

However your collie trainer has the right idea - stick with them!

You will not train out the lunging in a situation with dogs. You need to change your dogs emotions when he sees other dogs and this needs to be done slowly and carefully and at his pace/

A muzzle is a good idea for all dogs BUT your aim as a owner is not to put him in situations where he will react if possible eg with your own dogs.

Of course out and about it is a good idea and a good backup if you are caught off guard by a off lead dog.

Video showing how to muzzle train but the brilliant Chirag Patel

@PollyRoulllson Thank you! I knew somewoine would be able to help. If its OK I popped a few Q's into your great post. If you had a minute to reply I'd be very appreciative.

GSD need really careful socialisation. If in doubt go very very very slowly. *OK, thank you, I guess because I missed a few weeks I was thinking the window of opportunity was decreasing. Will he not get very set in his ways as he gets older and tolerant of less new things?

The socialisation period for GSD is different from some other breeds.
Thanks - in what way - as in slower?*

Your dog lunging and barking is an over aroused, stressed puppy. Yep, most of the time he is great but this is a trigger for him- more frustration I think*

So in all cases you should increase the distance from whatever is causing this reaction. Good point*

Personally I would not take the puppy to puppy classes unless the trainer has had a 121 with your dog and is aware of the situation. There needs to be a lot of space in the class for your dog to watch from a distance without reacting and then over time that distance will be decreased. Yes I did offer to the trainer to see him and may suggest this again, she was very good on the phone and confident that it would be fine, on the day if he is overwhelmed I am happy to sit in the corner and let him see

Do not force interactions to get your dog used to things . OK

I totally agree with your trainer who is being cautious and not wanting to over socialise your dog. You do need to go carefully or you could have a much harder problem to solve. OK - my fear is I am missing the window of opportunity- he is much more of a thinker than lets say a labrador - once he 'gets' something he gets it properly but needs a warm intro to new things

So think I want to have positive interactions rather than lots of
interactions. Very good point*

If you see a calm old dog plodding on the lead this is the dog your dog needs to view from a distance. I met an off lead doberman today (sweat on my brow as I saw her approach) who was a joy, completely ignored him, no interaction and I just stood with him until he sat and watched*

If you see lively off lead dogs at the moment these are dogs you want to avoid any interaction with. I only walk on land thats mine ( I live on a farm) or in an on lead public area - todays dog meet was an exception - he is on lead all the time - no dog parks, no off lead areas*

Teach your dog a look at that command and reward for noticing the dogs and then increase the distance. This would be good - if he has that then can can catch the reactivity before it rises*

However your collie trainer has the right idea - stick with them! OK!*

You will not train out the lunging in a situation with dogs. You need to change your dogs emotions when he sees other dogs and this needs to be done slowly and carefully and at his pace/

Thank you for all of the above

Shepherds are sensitive souls. I’ve not had one that I haven’t had to be careful with around other dogs to some extent, they aren’t really the type that can accept interactions with every single dog on walks IMO.
I have managed though to get all of mine walking quite happily past any dogs without reactivity, the key being that they think I’m more fun than the other dog. Is he motivated by toys or treats? I would start at home getting him really focused on you and slowly try snd keep that focus outside, boring places close to home at first and then building it up. I literally went around our street seeing dogs at a distance and gradually got closer, if there’s any reaction you’ve gone too quickly and need to take a step back.

Once I’ve got the focus on me I tend to do obedience style classes around other dogs but with no interaction to teach them that they can work around others without needing to worry about getting close to them.

Is there a reason you didn’t introduce the dogs on day 1? It would have been the first thing I did so it didn’t build up into a ‘thing’ which it seems to have become now. The dogs in the household should have really been the main focus straight away I would have thought.

hello @Leonberger
All great advice. I think I am going too fast in a rush to 'catch up'. He is a brave and confident boy but still in there is a tiny little pup so I must remember it.
The focus is the thing I guess. The trainer did comment pretty much on day one that he was fiercely independent, possibly a bit aloof so had no ball drive etc. He will track forever - screams with excitement to do it!
I fully accept he is not gonna be an all singing - all dancing socialite and my aim is to have a dog as you describe- focussed on me and able to ignore other dogs.
In the past few weeks I have focussed on lots of play, tug, and we are getting some good ball retrieve - so its a slow warm up - I think the working line is just a little less warm than a pet or show line.
The intro on day one - yeah - in retrospect I wish I had done that but trainer said against and now its a bigger issue - if it was done then it would have been less hassle as I imagine the older bitches would have done a warning bark and it would have been over. Thank you for your post - I really appreciate it.

I’ve never had a single shepherd (of many!) that particularly wants to be playing with other dogs outside of the family. At best they have said a quick hello and then gone back to whatever job they thought they were doing. I’m sure there are socialite GSD out there but I think they are more aloof than people think but I think it sounds like he hasn’t a clue what to do so he’s just jumping and shouting because he hasn’t quite got the idea yet. I would try and teach him the behaviour you do want, what I would work on first is see a dog, immediately as his eyes set on it call his name and as soon as he turns back to you treat/be stupidly happy/ball or whatever he wants until it clicks that when he sees a strange dog you actually want his attention and then go from there.
If your then happy for him to greet it then release him from that point but I would really try and not teach him that others are a source of fun at this point or he will probably bugger off at every opportunity!

I tend to find bad interactions can cause issues easily so socialisation is so important but I always do everything at the dogs pace, if it’s exciting and he’s shouting you’ve moved a little fast and he’s blown his mind basically

Have you got an obedience or even ringcraft club near you? I love these for working new puppies. I tend to explain to the organiser and sit in a quiet corner doing lots of positive interactions- using my hand as a target, sit, down and back to sit etc to get some focus while the other dogs are all doing whatever they are doing. It’s good to just sit and watch too and mine have all learnt quickly that the other dogs are busy and aren’t a source of entertainment. Eventually I like to join in the obedience ones, doing heel work around other dogs will really help you in the park etc.

I’m bad and just put a new puppy in straight away but I know and trust my older dogs would never do any harm. Once the puppy had been in for an hour or two the novelty was worn off and then I had to spend the time.
Is one of them calmer than the other so you could walk them alongside eachother?
Have they met at all?

It is really difficult to have a puppy who has been unwell, it happened to me and this particular pup was the hardest one I ever had after that but you will get there! You could consult a reg behaviourist also so they can give you a better idea if the source of the issue whether it is just frustration or fear and how to deal with it

I’d get shot of the trainer advising a halti tbh...they work by tightening on a dog’s head to cause them to be uncomfortable/painful, that potentially will cause even worse behavioural issues on a dog that’s finding things hard going already.

@tabulahrasa

I’d get shot of the trainer advising a halti tbh...they work by tightening on a dog’s head to cause them to be uncomfortable/painful, that potentially will cause even worse behavioural issues on a dog that’s finding things hard going already.

Thank ypu @tabulahrasa What do you recommend instead? He pulls a lot particularly if other dogs are close. Train on better heel with me? Just use normal collar and lead. First trainer recommended no collar and slip lead but he really pulls off against it. Any reccomendations are welcome.

Well ultimately the longterm solution is all the training, but to help if you’re struggling when he pulls... harnesses with rings for the lead on the chest give you more control because of where their weight then goes to, or you do get headcollars that don’t tighten, they just sit on their head like a horses head collar again because their weight can’t get behind the pull the same, though as a warning some dogs do find all head collars aversive, you’d have to train for wearing it in a very similar way that you do with a muzzle.

Are you looking to compete in IGP / IPO ? If so there are many brill trainers in this domain who may be more suitable

www.bagsdipo.co.uk/what-is-igp/

premier-k9.co.uk/what-is-ipo-igp-schutzhund/

@Leonberger

I’ve never had a single shepherd (of many!) that particularly wants to be playing with other dogs outside of the family. At best they have said a quick hello and then gone back to whatever job they thought they were doing. I’m sure there are socialite GSD out there but I think they are more aloof than people think but I think it sounds like he hasn’t a clue what to do so he’s just jumping and shouting because he hasn’t quite got the idea yet. I would try and teach him the behaviour you do want, what I would work on first is see a dog, immediately as his eyes set on it call his name and as soon as he turns back to you treat/be stupidly happy/ball or whatever he wants until it clicks that when he sees a strange dog you actually want his attention and then go from there. If your then happy for him to greet it then release him from that point but I would really try and not teach him that others are a source of fun at this point or he will probably bugger off at every opportunity!

I tend to find bad interactions can cause issues easily so socialisation is so important but I always do everything at the dogs pace, if it’s exciting and he’s shouting you’ve moved a little fast and he’s blown his mind basically

Have you got an obedience or even ringcraft club near you? I love these for working new puppies. I tend to explain to the organiser and sit in a quiet corner doing lots of positive interactions- using my hand as a target, sit, down and back to sit etc to get some focus while the other dogs are all doing whatever they are doing. It’s good to just sit and watch too and mine have all learnt quickly that the other dogs are busy and aren’t a source of entertainment. Eventually I like to join in the obedience ones, doing heel work around other dogs will really help you in the park etc.

I’m bad and just put a new puppy in straight away but I know and trust my older dogs would never do any harm. Once the puppy had been in for an hour or two the novelty was worn off and then I had to spend the time.
Is one of them calmer than the other so you could walk them alongside eachother?
Have they met at all?

It is really difficult to have a puppy who has been unwell, it happened to me and this particular pup was the hardest one I ever had after that but you will get there! You could consult a reg behaviourist also so they can give you a better idea if the source of the issue whether it is just frustration or fear and how to deal with it

Hello @Leonberger I agree with your post. I dont want him super social- most GSD are not!, just sensible, polite and focussed would be lovely!. He does need more focus on me so I need to find the key to me being the best fun. I do think the few weeks sick really stopped the bonding, poor guy was sore, tired and not himself. The local obedience is a small class of 6 in a big hall so I will tell trainer I am starting on the outside edge and just watching for overwhelm. I actually think if he could get to play he would love it and probably be less curious and frustrated but the play needs to be very careful. The other two dogs- my GSD x is great, gentle and wants to play but as he is up to high do when he sees her she leaves. He will happily lie in his pen and watch her in the kitchen but if she comes over he starts yelling to get to her. The lurcher is a small one so he might easily overwhelm her. I have to be careful for both. If I could get them all chilled out with each other over time I would be happy.

@tabulahrasa

Well ultimately the longterm solution is all the training, but to help if you’re struggling when he pulls... harnesses with rings for the lead on the chest give you more control because of where their weight then goes to, or you do get headcollars that don’t tighten, they just sit on their head like a horses head collar again because their weight can’t get behind the pull the same, though as a warning some dogs do find all head collars aversive, you’d have to train for wearing it in a very similar way that you do with a muzzle.

@tabulahrasa thats great. We have ponies too so I get the concept. I think if he pulled less the other stuff on a walk might be less hard- like seeing other dogs etc. Currently he is wheezing if he wants to get to somewhere fast.

[quote stevalnamechanger]Are you looking to compete in IGP / IPO ? If so there are many brill trainers in this domain who may be more suitable

www.bagsdipo.co.uk/what-is-igp/

premier-k9.co.uk/what-is-ipo-igp-schutzhund/[/quote]
Hi @stevalnamechanger
Yes there is an IPO club near me about an hour away.
The obedience is interesting but wary of jumping due to joint issue he had.
The protection stuff has no interest for me but tracking does. I think I can do that as stand alone tho so that might be an avenue. Even at this age he is hysterical about tracking and finds everything very fast and stays at it.

His sire has just done really well two big European competitions and is highly regarded so he certainly has the genes for it.

I'm going to take up IPO when I leave London and have space for a GSD - our family have several !

The trainers really know the GSD type , and the needs of a "working dog" breed - rather than some of the more generalist trainers out there that don't have deep breed knowledge ( nor really extensive challenging obedience work that IPO provides )

@Janeandjohnny I would probably bring him into the room with the other dog with him on a lead and let him get on with it until he gets bored, providing it won’t stress your other dog of course!
I don’t allow any play in my house at all really (obviously they do play in the gardens or in the kitchen sometimes but I can’t have a shepherd and 2 80kg dogs running around the place!) so they know they behave or get put out of the space we are in…they have all learnt very very quickly that we all like peace and quiet in here

@Leonberger Thanks. So I bring him into the living room most evenings. The lurcher ignores the pup completely by lying on the couch. The GSD x bitch lies on the floor being very good and trying to be friendly. Puppy is on a lead and barking. Barks when he cant get to other dog. I could let him.off but think he would just plough into her and one or both end up bitten. If he could shut up and calm down it would probably be fine.
If I gently get him to focus on me he calms down via a treat or whatever then he is fine and then reverts... sigh..I can give him.a toy to chew and he will lie on lead 2 feet from the GSD x and be happy but once toy is not there he starts again.
Maybe an intro on a walk when both off lead?? I wish I had done it when he was 8 weeks, so much easier...
If he had a muzzle on walk then he could not nip her, I dont want other dog harassed as she is so gentle nor do I want him reactive because of not seeing other dogs. Tricky.
My trainer comes on Tuesday so its my first Q.
Puppy class next week and will watch from side to see how we go.

Re introduction. Can you get someone to help you?

I would start with circular walking outside in a huge area. Have a massive gap between you and one of your dogs. Let the dogs sniff the ground they will pick up so much info from the other dog in a calm way. If either dog reacts increase the distance.

If this works ok

I would then move onto parallel walking again with a massive gap between them even one side of a football pitch if necessary.

It is important that your let the dogs see each and not distract them with treats etc BUT you can reward them for looking at each other and not reacting. SO look at that they look - look back to you and reward.

When this is ok you can slowly decrease the distance between the dogs so they are calmly walking closer to each other. This may take a few minutes or days - it doesnt matter go at their pace.

When they can walk parallel to each other you can then start off parallel but then have converging lines so you will meet, just meet and walk on past. If no reaction next time you meet you can then have a 2 sec greeting and walk on past. Build this up etc.

In the house I would have gated communties so they can see each other but are at a big distance from each other. Any reaction to each other they are removed. If there is a lot of reaction I would avoid them having any contact for several days and just do the walking.

Dogs get really good at what they practice! So dont let them rehearse yobby behaviour with each other.

Also think can you get calm from your puppy without any distractions? If you can then you have more hope, if you are trying to get calm in a high arousal situation then you must practice in a low arousal situation first.

Your dog will NOT get reactive from not seeing other dogs completely opposite will happen.

A very "aggressive" GSD bought to me for dog on dog aggression 18 months old. Had limited socialisation due to being rehomed on many occasions due to reactivity.

First thing we did was prevent all access to dogs. We worked on basic behaviours, calm , lead walking, focus on owner, getting used to novelty and not reacting etc etc. After 4 months the dog was allowed to see a dog in the distance and the dog immediately fell into the new behaviour of the heel position and owner focus. We then just decreased the distance between dogs etc. Now no issue with seeing dogs and has learnt new behaviours instead of lunging etc.

Seeing dogs will not help unless your dog is able to cope with seeing dogs. It probably will more liekly make the situation worse.

I have a 16 month old White German Shepherd and I have to say that I haven't experienced any issues with socialising her. She was a little over friendly as a young puppy, but as she's gotten older, she's calmed down. She loves nothing more than charging round a field with other dogs - her "best friends" are a Daschund, Rottweiler, Dalmatian and 2 little Cockerpoo types dogs 😁 And she absolutely loves people! Very soppy and wants cuddles all the time.

@PollyRoulllson

Re introduction. Can you get someone to help you?

I would start with circular walking outside in a huge area. Have a massive gap between you and one of your dogs. Let the dogs sniff the ground they will pick up so much info from the other dog in a calm way. If either dog reacts increase the distance.

If this works ok

I would then move onto parallel walking again with a massive gap between them even one side of a football pitch if necessary.

It is important that your let the dogs see each and not distract them with treats etc BUT you can reward them for looking at each other and not reacting. SO look at that they look - look back to you and reward.

When this is ok you can slowly decrease the distance between the dogs so they are calmly walking closer to each other. This may take a few minutes or days - it doesnt matter go at their pace.

When they can walk parallel to each other you can then start off parallel but then have converging lines so you will meet, just meet and walk on past. If no reaction next time you meet you can then have a 2 sec greeting and walk on past. Build this up etc.

In the house I would have gated communties so they can see each other but are at a big distance from each other. Any reaction to each other they are removed. If there is a lot of reaction I would avoid them having any contact for several days and just do the walking.

Dogs get really good at what they practice! So dont let them rehearse yobby behaviour with each other.

Also think can you get calm from your puppy without any distractions? If you can then you have more hope, if you are trying to get calm in a high arousal situation then you must practice in a low arousal situation first.

Your dog will NOT get reactive from not seeing other dogs completely opposite will happen.

A very "aggressive" GSD bought to me for dog on dog aggression 18 months old. Had limited socialisation due to being rehomed on many occasions due to reactivity.

First thing we did was prevent all access to dogs. We worked on basic behaviours, calm , lead walking, focus on owner, getting used to novelty and not reacting etc etc. After 4 months the dog was allowed to see a dog in the distance and the dog immediately fell into the new behaviour of the heel position and owner focus. We then just decreased the distance between dogs etc. Now no issue with seeing dogs and has learnt new behaviours instead of lunging etc.

Seeing dogs will not help unless your dog is able to cope with seeing dogs. It probably will more liekly make the situation worse.

@PollyRoulllson Im just getting a moment to reply to your very useful thread reply. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge - it all makes sense. So, since the last post yesterday I spoke to the breeder- apparently because they are working line they are all a bit wired/drivey. He said it will take time to see him mature etc, basically stick with it. I think really as breeder and litter mates are all in working homes it is a bit different, there is less requirement for socialisation, a lot of drive energy is used up and there is less pleasure walking etc. Also, interestingly- today a neighbours spaniel came into a field I was in with (Max) the pup and he saw her before I did, I had the cold hand of dread as he ran to her...but it was OK, he was just interested, she got a surprise and ran away but he was good and came back to me. I was pleased as he was off lead in the field (our property) and I was not expecting another dog. Secondly one of my kids was jumping a pony in a field today and he was super interested, watching on his lead when my lurcher female came up right beside him and he was not as nuts as I thought he would be, maybe because of distraction? He did jump about a bit at her on lead but she snapped back and she stood back so maybe her correction worked better than I thought. I had not planned that but both of them were ok I thought. Did not let him lunge and lurcher was fine so that was a short intro that I can build on. I think he is not agressive just craving contact. So, a little unanticipated progress. I see my trainer tmrw and will report. I may try your advice on intro with the GSD x bitch as she is a bit more frisky than lucher. Thank you again. I appreciate your post and advice.