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The doghouse

If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

The minefield of choosing dog food

129 replies

PupsterDude · 12/12/2021 17:29

I have a happy lovely puppy whos 3 months old. She was being fed raw (natures menus frozen puppy nuggets, when she came to live at mine. Having done research, I’d already decided to switch her to dried because I’m immune compromised and I think it’s an unnecessary risk even with extra hygiene.
Trouble is that everyone has an opinion and now I’m feeling confused and deflated. :( I’ve started introducing a dry food but people said, oh you’ll never potty train her with that and that it’s not the right food. Someone said raw is best but if not, dried raw? It feels like I don’t know what I’m doing now.

OP posts:
MingePies · 16/12/2021 10:13

Just reading through the comments @Veterinari you're coming across as sanctimonious and quite aggressive.

Veterinari · 16/12/2021 10:48

@Wolfiefan

Those articles are really interesting. But even they say things like freezing food properly and hand washing. Careful with dog poo! I follow those guidelines. Raw feeding definitely doesn’t suit all owners or dogs. It’s not for everyone. But for us? It’s been a revolution. My eldest dog would hardly eat. Unless it was her own feet. Actually eating her feet. It was bloody awful. On a careful raw diet she’s fine. We have gone from daily vet visits to a yearly check up. So it’s definitely the best for her.
Yep absolutely following the hygiene guidance is important. But it doesn't stop public health risks from AMR etc
Veterinari · 16/12/2021 10:49

@MingePies

Just reading through the comments *@Veterinari* you're coming across as sanctimonious and quite aggressive.
Interesting that some posters can only offer personal attacks in response to evidence

I'd be more convinced by rational arguments than insults

MingePies · 16/12/2021 10:54

@ Veterinari Are you trying to scare people into not feeding raw to keep you and other Vets in business?

Veterinari · 16/12/2021 11:00

@MingePies

@ Veterinari Are you trying to scare people into not feeding raw to keep you and other Vets in business?
Why do you think evidence-based science is scary?

Education in responsible pet ownership is part of the role of vets, it's up to you what choices you make, my only suggestion is that you make those choices based on evidence rather than assumption.

This thread has personal experiences from several dog owners of some of the direct problems arising from feeding raw. The indirect consequences reported in the literature are less tangible but probably more serious from a public health point of view and it's important to be aware of those too.

And no I make no money from pet food, or from sharing information on threads like this. I just think it's important to counteract misinformation.

It's a shame that folk have to resort to insults and cast aspersions on my motivation in order to try and justify their science-denying narrative

Flatandhappy · 16/12/2021 11:04

When we got our first puppy in 2009 the vet said a good quality dried dog food was all she needs, that dog lived for 12 years sadly dying this year and our other dog is now 10 and very healthy. We have never changed food although they do/did get extras like leftover lean meat and veg. Even premium dried food is a lot less expensive, and hassle, than the whole raw food thing. Feed your dog what suits you and your budget.

Allaboutyou222 · 16/12/2021 13:52

My dog gets aatu as I also like that it’s free range. Sorry to say she get the occasional Lily’s Kichen wet too. She seems fine. She was scavenging rubbish on the streets before she was rescued so I guess she’s happy with that! Occasionally cooked meat and bits of veg.

What’s funny,,, this stress about what to feed your dog. My childhood spaniel had Chappie, Winalot and loads of rubbish from us kids….biscuits etc,pizza! He lived to a ripe old age! Not that I would do that now. (though she occasionally licks out the leftover tray from a ready meal 😬)

Leonberger · 16/12/2021 14:01

@MingePies I would say I’ve probably seen more people spending money on antibiotics for diahorrea and surgery for impacted bones after raw feeding than before…

I’m not saying some dogs don’t do well on it but I would say there’s more bad than good from what I’ve seen.

PugWhiskers · 16/12/2021 15:53

Raw feeding definitely wasn't for us - have only ever fed our puppy a decent quality kibble.

One thing to factor in with a new puppy is that they need feeding sometimes 4 times a day - I'm not sure how that works if you want to be going out and about. Our dog is down to two main meals a day now but for a while if we were out over lunch I'd bring her kibble in a tupperware.

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 17/12/2021 07:18

I'm definitely concerned about antibiotic resistance but more so about where it arises in the food supply chain - I'm likely to be more exposed to pathogens on my work on farms and my wild swimming hobby than from my dog.
And maybe more likely to get e coli from a bagged salad or pre prepared sandwich.

Veterinari · 17/12/2021 07:24

@Ihaventgottimeforthis

I'm definitely concerned about antibiotic resistance but more so about where it arises in the food supply chain - I'm likely to be more exposed to pathogens on my work on farms and my wild swimming hobby than from my dog. And maybe more likely to get e coli from a bagged salad or pre prepared sandwich.
The thing with antibiotic resistance is it's not about individual risk It's about overall contribution of antibiotic resistant microbes to the ecosystem.

The more people that choose to raw feed and the more dogs that act as carriers, the greater that overall contribution is and the more risk there is of the AMR population becoming dominant. It's no different to AMR in the food chain or from other sources, it's all contributing to the same problem.

Vets have worked hard to dramatically reduce and refine antibiotic use over recent years. But raw feeding presents an AMR threat driven mostly by 'fashion'

LadyNell · 17/12/2021 08:23

Mine get fed whatever we gave, leftovers, what did people feed before kibble, the same I would imagine.

LadyNell · 17/12/2021 08:26

Have not gave

Baystard · 17/12/2021 08:42

Just reading through the comments @Veterinari you're coming across as sanctimonious and quite aggressive.

That's not how I see them. In fact you're coming across that you don't like being told you're wrong, by someone qualified to do so.

Mickarooni · 17/12/2021 08:46

@Veterinari has been extremely helpful and certainly not aggressive. I appreciate evidence based advice. Every vet I’ve spoken to agrees with Veterinari’s position and, as I said, I’ve never felt any vet surgery has tried the “hard sell” with any food.

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 17/12/2021 10:58

@veterinari can you put the risk into proportion for me? Like how significant is the contribution of raw fed dogs (a wild stab in the dark, perhaps 1% of dogs) to the lack of controls on antibiotic usage on farms globally?
I can see how raw fed dogs can contribute in some way to the risk, I wonder is there any data to judge what proportion of risk it is...

PermanentlyDizzy · 17/12/2021 11:32

I’ve never once had a food pushed at me by vets in over 30 years of having dogs. Yes our vets sell specialist foods, they always have, but the only time we have even discussed it was when I had a seriously ill dog on end-of-life care and it was discussed as one potential option, if, we couldn’t find any other foods he could tolerate.

If you do the research properly, hydrolysed food is sometimes needed for dogs that are reacting badly to almost every food. It breaks the food down into particles the dog’s body doesn’t recognise and react to, whilst maintaining optimum nutrition. Just because the label doesn’t read organic, premium, fresh chicken or whatever other ingredient you’re looking at, doesn’t mean it isn’t what some dogs need or doesn’t meet their nutritional needs. Two of my dc have a condition that can lead to extreme reactions to almost anything including most foods. Thankfully mine aren’t too badly affected, but if they were, I wouldn’t be objecting to them being on prescription foods via tubes as many of their peers are and instead insist on feeding them a home made organic/fresh/paleo diet instead. I would be led my medical science and knowledge. No one dog food is going to suit all dogs, some need complex, medically derived veterinary food, most don’t. If my vet was trying to sell such food to me when I had an healthy/fit dog I would probably move vets, not assume they are all out to cash in.

No-one is suggesting prescription diets are right for the vast majority of dogs, but there are a wealth of other choices out there and it’s down to personal preference, budget and circumstances as to which one is right for an individual and their dog.

As for @Veterinari, I am extremely grateful to them for pointing me in the direction of evidence based information on raw feeding on a thread ages ago. It helped me to research both sides of the story and make an informed choice - which, for me, was not to return to raw feeding (and I say that as someone that fed raw for almost a decade). I don’t think it’s fair or appropriate to rubbish someone and start accusing them of being sanctimonious based on the fact you don’t like their posting style. Veterinari’s posts are direct, straight talking and fact based. They are on the sharp end of insults on pretty much every raw/kibble feeding thread and yet still post fact based information every time this subject comes up (which it does a lot) because it’s a subject they feel strongly about.

At the end of the day, all any of us can do is what we feel (based on our own experience and knowledge) is right for our own dogs and that’s fine. We can all offer opinions and suggest further reading/evidence, but suggesting it’s all ok and will suit any dog/family situation without being fully aware of the other person’s circumstances or the potential consequences for them/their family/their dog is very far from ideal and potentially dangerous. Veterinari’s contributions are needed to provide balance and help people to make a fully informed decision about what is genuinely right for them/their dog.

Veterinari · 17/12/2021 12:29

[quote Ihaventgottimeforthis]@veterinari can you put the risk into proportion for me? Like how significant is the contribution of raw fed dogs (a wild stab in the dark, perhaps 1% of dogs) to the lack of controls on antibiotic usage on farms globally?
I can see how raw fed dogs can contribute in some way to the risk, I wonder is there any data to judge what proportion of risk it is...[/quote]
I couldn't possibly answer that - I'm not a public health epidemiologist - only a GP vet.

I expect the risks will vary significantly depending on environment, farming practices, dispensing regulations concomitant disease and treatments and dog interactions within any given population

Veterinari · 17/12/2021 12:34

@PermanentlyDizzy

I’ve never once had a food pushed at me by vets in over 30 years of having dogs. Yes our vets sell specialist foods, they always have, but the only time we have even discussed it was when I had a seriously ill dog on end-of-life care and it was discussed as one potential option, if, we couldn’t find any other foods he could tolerate.

If you do the research properly, hydrolysed food is sometimes needed for dogs that are reacting badly to almost every food. It breaks the food down into particles the dog’s body doesn’t recognise and react to, whilst maintaining optimum nutrition. Just because the label doesn’t read organic, premium, fresh chicken or whatever other ingredient you’re looking at, doesn’t mean it isn’t what some dogs need or doesn’t meet their nutritional needs. Two of my dc have a condition that can lead to extreme reactions to almost anything including most foods. Thankfully mine aren’t too badly affected, but if they were, I wouldn’t be objecting to them being on prescription foods via tubes as many of their peers are and instead insist on feeding them a home made organic/fresh/paleo diet instead. I would be led my medical science and knowledge. No one dog food is going to suit all dogs, some need complex, medically derived veterinary food, most don’t. If my vet was trying to sell such food to me when I had an healthy/fit dog I would probably move vets, not assume they are all out to cash in.

No-one is suggesting prescription diets are right for the vast majority of dogs, but there are a wealth of other choices out there and it’s down to personal preference, budget and circumstances as to which one is right for an individual and their dog.

As for @Veterinari, I am extremely grateful to them for pointing me in the direction of evidence based information on raw feeding on a thread ages ago. It helped me to research both sides of the story and make an informed choice - which, for me, was not to return to raw feeding (and I say that as someone that fed raw for almost a decade). I don’t think it’s fair or appropriate to rubbish someone and start accusing them of being sanctimonious based on the fact you don’t like their posting style. Veterinari’s posts are direct, straight talking and fact based. They are on the sharp end of insults on pretty much every raw/kibble feeding thread and yet still post fact based information every time this subject comes up (which it does a lot) because it’s a subject they feel strongly about.

At the end of the day, all any of us can do is what we feel (based on our own experience and knowledge) is right for our own dogs and that’s fine. We can all offer opinions and suggest further reading/evidence, but suggesting it’s all ok and will suit any dog/family situation without being fully aware of the other person’s circumstances or the potential consequences for them/their family/their dog is very far from ideal and potentially dangerous. Veterinari’s contributions are needed to provide balance and help people to make a fully informed decision about what is genuinely right for them/their dog.

Thank you Flowers

I am aware I'm not always tactful, but I'm also doing this whilst juggling a million other things, and to be honest I'm often a bit tired and frustrated too.
I appreciate you recognising the value in what I sometimes say. I definitely don't claim to get it right all the time, and have learned plenty myself from incredibly knowledgeable doghouse posters.

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 17/12/2021 14:11

Sorry Veterinari I was asking a bit much!

I do believe in feeding raw, it suits us, but I'm well aware it's not without risk - for the dog, and for me and my family. So I do constantly consider it, and being able to put the likely risk into perspective would be informative.

StarfishDish · 17/12/2021 19:48

Wainwright's Dry Food from Pets at Home and Morrisons Own Wet Food Pouches.

Our dog was toilet trained at 16 weeks!

saddowizca · 20/12/2021 14:46

I’d quite like to make my own dog food, I’m the same vein as Butternut but cheaper, but not sure where to find a properly balanced recipe. I can buy all sorts of offal from my butcher and ddog loved cooked rice and chicken when she had a mild dose of diarrhoea once and also loves Cooke veg and roast leftovers. We have been raw feeding, but she often turns her nose up at it and it’s really expensive! @Veterinari’s comments has really made me question why I would continue with it.
Any butternut-esque recipes would be really appreciated 🙏

saddowizca · 20/12/2021 14:47

Excuse typos on bus!

FlemishHorse · 20/12/2021 19:19

I’m so sick and tired of the raw food evangelists, especially those who insinuate that feeding raw is somehow proof that you love and understand dogs better than others.

Dogs aren’t carnivorous wolves, they’ve evolved to be opportunistic feeders who can survive and thrive on a varied diet.

All my dogs have enjoyed and thrived on a good quality kibble with a bit of wet food or leftovers to make a gravy. A friend’s dogs are thriving on Bakers Complete, which some people consider little short of poison. Yes, some dogs have allergies, eg to chicken cartilage, but that’s a separate issue. It really isn’t that bloody complicated.

PermanentlyDizzy · 20/12/2021 20:03

@saddowizca

I’d quite like to make my own dog food, I’m the same vein as Butternut but cheaper, but not sure where to find a properly balanced recipe. I can buy all sorts of offal from my butcher and ddog loved cooked rice and chicken when she had a mild dose of diarrhoea once and also loves Cooke veg and roast leftovers. We have been raw feeding, but she often turns her nose up at it and it’s really expensive! *@Veterinari*’s comments has really made me question why I would continue with it. Any butternut-esque recipes would be really appreciated 🙏
@saddowizca I know nothing about this company, but they keep appearing on my fb feed and I’ve been meaning to read up about them and see whether or not it’s all hype. May be worth a look, as the basic plan is free.

Vetchef.com