BIL's dog is aggressive towards DS

[5amwakeup]

My DS is 2 and a half. My DH's brother and SIL have a labrador who is about 3 who he, SIL and his mum adore. They live near eachother and share the dog.

The dog has met my DS around 3 times, each time without an obvious cause the dog has snarled at DS. Each time I've had to pick DS up while the dog is removed. Last time the dog ran towards DS and snapped towards his feet immediately on entering the house. I had to lift him out of reach and move away quickly. I think he may have bit DS if he wasn't removed.

It seems obvious that we can't see the dog again, but I don't know how to broach this with them. They have said they feel embarrassed by the dog's behaviour, but they haven't volunteered how we manage this as a family.

BIL is very firm with the dog and will smack him on the nose for bad behaviour. I think this might be the root of the aggression but I have never had a dog and don't feel qualified to say this.

Any ideas on how to approach this?

You need to tell him straight that the dog can never be in the same room as your DC

A family member of mine had a very difficult rescue dog which used to lunge aggressively at visitors. So when we visited I'd stay in the car until my DMum had gone in and checked the dog had been shut in a different room. The dog never came to ours.

And I agree that his current approach is likely to exacerbate the problems.

If you cannot rely on him to keep the dog fully separate, then you cannot visit his home, and you will have to see him, dog-free, elsewhere

I'd avoid contact with the dog and meet elsewhere, he's not a good dog owner which makes the situation riskier.

If the dog gets a snack every time it expresses it's concerned about something it will just link the pain to whatever is, i.e the child in this instance and by damaging the relationship with violence a dog will become increasingly anxious and with less less trust in owner to deal with scary thing when alerted for it. Like you shouldn't tell a dog off for growling as it may just stop giving that warning to back off then at greater risk of a bite.

A lot of dogs are more protective around their
home territory so can act differently to visitors there than if met outside or at a park.
Small children can also seem very alien to dogs which haven't had socialisation to them as they obviously don't look the same, move differently , behave more noisy and unpredictable compared adults they're used to. Much like children, dogs need to feel safe before they can learn something is ok and not to be afraid of, personally I find Its easier to keep dog safely away from visiting kids using babygate or crate especially when so young as they're more likely to fall on or grab the dog unexpectedly and it's very easy to be distracted in conversation.

@Palmfrond

It sounds like the dog sees the child as a threat to its position in the hierarchy. You often see this when you introduce a cute little puppy into a household with established dogs. All the people are like “puppy!! cuuuute!!”, all the dogs are like “die motherfucker die”. There may be other reasons the dog reacts this way, but that ones a classic. It may also just be freaked out by kids in general, but usually with dogs things boil down to hierarchy struggles. What needs to be done is for the child to be established as firmly higher in the hierarchy than the dog. That could take some doing, depending on the temperament of the dog. Presuming that employing a dog behaviourist is too much of a faff, as said just keep the dog away from children. And I t’s perfectly okay to request that of dog owners. Lastly concerning the smacking of the dog; dogs regularly chastise each other physically as a way of maintaining the pecking order. Smacking a dog for growling at a child may not do any good but it won’t do it any harm, and will almost certainly let the dog know that you disapprove. Unfortunately the dog’s dislike of the child as a threat to its status will override what it understands as a mild (non status threatening) chastisement (the smack). Dogs are not toddlers.

I hope you’re not a dog owner. The pecking order of a pack of dogs is completely different to some fucker of a human smacking them. People that think smacking a dog shouldn’t own them!

I would never allow your child in the same house/garden as the dog. not even behind a closed door or stairgate or in the garden. if the dog is at the house, I wouldn't go. and obviously not allow the dog over to your house or garden. and I also wouldn't meet in a public space if they brought the dog.

It sounds a nightmare, OP, but you can't ever let the dog near your DS. And I think they need telling very firmly that it's not acceptable, because if it's not your DC it'll be someone elses.

I would also make sure that everyone in the family is aware of it too.

If the dog is being smacked on the nose, it indicates that your BIL doesn’t know what he’s doing and has no control. When a dog has an owner that has no control, they become more anxious - which means they become more unpredictable. Most aggressive behaviour - like snapping, lunging, barking, growling - comes from fear. Punishing the dog for fear will make the dog more fearful, which will make him more likely to bite, because his softer expressions of fear aren’t being listened to.

Many anxious dogs are afraid of toddlers and children, because young kids can be unpredictable in the way they look / move / make noises.

As others have said, if I was in your shoes I would be totally honest. Don’t have your child around the dog. It’s not worth the risk.

Your BIL needs to hire an IMDT accredited trainer / behaviourist who deals in positive reinforcement methods only. If you want to help him, you could always look for some and make recommendations. Other than this, there is nothing you can do.

A similar situation stopped me going to my mother's house when my DC were young. I'd ask that their unpredictable border collie be put in another room, but after a while my mother would always ask if the dog could come in with us - the dog that once went for my face, but apparently that was my fault because I looked at it! I couldn't believe my mother would risk the dog around her grandchildren, but she would, so my only choice was to stop visiting.

This is too important an issue to pussyfoot around OP. Either the dog is shut away when you visit or you don't visit, and I say that as a dog lover and a dog owner.

@Palmfrond

It sounds like the dog sees the child as a threat to its position in the hierarchy. You often see this when you introduce a cute little puppy into a household with established dogs. All the people are like “puppy!! cuuuute!!”, all the dogs are like “die motherfucker die”. There may be other reasons the dog reacts this way, but that ones a classic. It may also just be freaked out by kids in general, but usually with dogs things boil down to hierarchy struggles. What needs to be done is for the child to be established as firmly higher in the hierarchy than the dog. That could take some doing, depending on the temperament of the dog. Presuming that employing a dog behaviourist is too much of a faff, as said just keep the dog away from children. And I t’s perfectly okay to request that of dog owners. Lastly concerning the smacking of the dog; dogs regularly chastise each other physically as a way of maintaining the pecking order. Smacking a dog for growling at a child may not do any good but it won’t do it any harm, and will almost certainly let the dog know that you disapprove. Unfortunately the dog’s dislike of the child as a threat to its status will override what it understands as a mild (non status threatening) chastisement (the smack). Dogs are not toddlers.

Pack theory has been debunked and any one who still spouts this rubbish doesn't know much about dogs

@SexyNeckbeard
I’ve no idea what “pack theory” is, but anyone who works with dogs, or indeed has any experience with dogs outside of them as pampered solitary family pets knows that they are hierarchical. How you deal with that information is what is important.

Dogs know that people aren't dogs. Saying the child needs to be above the dog in the pecking order is classic pack or dominance theory so saying you don't know what it is - well it's quite confusing really.

A team of working sled dogs and the way they interact with each other is very different to a labrador living in a family home so I'm still failing to see the relevance.

www.animalhealthfoundation.org/blog/2017/10/the-myth-of-the-alpha-dog/

I agree with pps that you will just have to be very clear and very firm that the child and dog should not be in the same room.

We have a dog and for various reasons I would not trust them around a young child who did not live with us so I always put her in her cage when a child is around.

@SexyNeckbeard it’s not my job to subscribe to other people’s theories, but I’ll finish by saying that for a dog to be aggressive to children means it has failed to understand their respective positions. You could call it being poorly socialised, if you’re uncomfortable with the word hierarchy.
Bottom line is that it’s the dog owner’s duty to control their dogs, including keeping them isolated from children to whom they show aggression. To refuse to do that is unreasonable.

Your BIL would benefit from reading

Easy peasy puppy squeezy

If I hit you and hurt you, would you want to hit me back (or bite me) and hurt me? If I am anxious about a situation, say someone coming into the room, screaming and charging around (as toddlers often do), if you showed signs of anxiety or fear, would you like me to hit you for that?

Your BIL is a dreadful dog owner and should give the dog up.

In the meantime, do not expose your child to the dog or the dog to your child.

[quote Palmfrond]@SexyNeckbeard it’s not my job to subscribe to other people’s theories, but I’ll finish by saying that for a dog to be aggressive to children means it has failed to understand their respective positions. You could call it being poorly socialised, if you’re uncomfortable with the word hierarchy.
Bottom line is that it’s the dog owner’s duty to control their dogs, including keeping them isolated from children to whom they show aggression. To refuse to do that is unreasonable.[/quote]
I think the "alpha male and pack theory" theory has been debunked

This is getting a bit silly and off topic but if you don’t believe that dogs have hierarchy then just get yourself down to your local hunt kennels at feeding time.
Tbh I have to wonder how many of the posters on this thread are the kind of first time lockdown dog owners trying to recall their £2.5k fur babies in the park by using their little clickers, and who are now dog experts? (Fentooooon!!!)

@Palmfrond

This is getting a bit silly and off topic but if you don’t believe that dogs have hierarchy then just get yourself down to your local hunt kennels at feeding time. Tbh I have to wonder how many of the posters on this thread are the kind of first time lockdown dog owners trying to recall their £2.5k fur babies in the park by using their little clickers, and who are now dog experts? (Fentooooon!!!)

I wonder at the outdated theory of long time dog owners, who are not moving with the times?

So many of them about, it's quite shocking as this post has shown from the problem in the OP.

BTW I am a long time dog owner, lost our dog and have a new puppy, cost me £2.5k, I don't call her a fur baby and I revisited all training as so much has changed since we last had a puppy. I thought about the science behind the most recent methods and all made perfect sense.

Some dog owners are so stuck in their "old" ways..... things change....more research etc.

You're just making yourself look silly now. Hunting hounds are in a totally different environment to house pets - if all you understand is working dogs then your "experience" isn't relevant to this situation.

The fact you're so scathing about clicker training just shows your general ignorance really - I think you've made it fairly obvious you don't know what you're talking about.

I think we can both agree that this dog shouldn't be near the child but thats because it's had a whack across the chops every time it sees the kid and reacts negatively to it and has now learnt the kid means pain. Not because it thinks humans are dogs and its struggling for dominance over a toddler.

@Palmfrond

This is getting a bit silly and off topic but if you don’t believe that dogs have hierarchy then just get yourself down to your local hunt kennels at feeding time. Tbh I have to wonder how many of the posters on this thread are the kind of first time lockdown dog owners trying to recall their £2.5k fur babies in the park by using their little clickers, and who are now dog experts? (Fentooooon!!!)

I am a longtime dog owner who got my dog well before lockdown, have never referred to him as a Furbaby, don’t have a clicker and sure as shit didn’t pay £2.5k for him I still think you are talking out of your arse

@SexyNeckbeard
“ it's had a whack across the chops every time it sees the kid and reacts negatively to it and has now learnt the kid means pain.”

Lol, you’ve just made that up! At least we share a taste for the Pythonesque. I salute you & goodbye.