Not taking to the crate - desperate - please help!

[Calmamongthechaos]

So we welcomed our second dog, a 5 month old puppy almost 5 weeks ago and are crate training. We never did this with our older dog who we adopted at 18months as he could be trusted and slept while we were working from home in the day.

The puppy will not take to the crate. We have done all the recommendations, treats for going on, feeding in there, kongs etc when she goes in for naps and we ignore her initial pleas to come out. We’re working in the dining room so she can see us but it’s non stop barking. She’s a collie cross and we’ve been working through the crate games and she nails everyone but still doesn’t seem to find it ‘rewarding’ being in there. If we have her out she does not stop and annoys our other dog and doesn’t sleep. She’s only in there couple of hrs in the morning and at through the night so not an excessive amount. Nighttime is awful and we care currently camping out in the dining room, waiting till she is asleep and sneaking away but when she realises we aren’t there all hell breaks loose and we can’t have her barking in the middle of the night. Please help, what more can we do?

Have you covered it?
Put a big throw or towel over it make it more like a den and should help her relax a bit more?

We had 4 ddogs and they all slept in a heap overnight. Got a dpuppy who we crated for her own safety for a few months until she outgrew it!! Still have 4 as lost one sadly. Can you gate off the kitchen and leave it behind the gate? Do you not want them cuddling up over night? Releases you from cajoling it!!

It’s covered on three sides at the moment, should it really be fully covered? We have a baby gate up as well for keeping them apart when needed. She just doesn’t seem to stop when out of the crate unless she is snuggling on the sofa with one of us which we can’t do during the working day, it more of an evening treat for both dogs. I don’t want her to not sleep as I know it’s really important for her. Older dog is still warming up to puppy and while happy interacting doesn’t seem keen when she tries to snuggle in. But mostly she is just being a pest to older dog who is happy to play just not non-stop. She’s getting 2 x 25 mins walks a day, one off lead and one sniffy. Meals come in a snuffle mat or we do short training sessions so she should be tired mentally and physically although I knew this would be a challenge to get right with her being a collie cross.

I personally would forget about crating her.collies dont take well to crating.But this means,you have invest time in training.Collies learn quickly!make her go in her bed,praise her when she lays in her bed.you will have to be persistent and patient,but she will get there.she is uncomfortable in the crate no matter how many treats there are in it.some dogs do well with crating and other dogs just dont like it.if a dog has a resting place she is comfortable with,she will settle.

@Thatldo that does make some sense, she’s so quick to pick everything else up but this is the one thing that hasn’t improved really. I just don’t trust her to settle once in a bed and if she doesn’t get sleep then we’ve got a real devil on our hands. We do this in the afternoons as I don’t want her crated all day and do as you’ve described and it’s a real hit and miss as to whether she naps. That’s been the routine for the last 5 weeks and we’re no better off.

I think if she's picking other things up well, but protesting at the crate, then perhaps it's just not for her. Could you keep her separate but not crated at night?

We could, we’ve not left her unsupervised in any room yet as she has been attempting to chew (although we redirect) things we can’t really remove (walls/kitchen counter) as she has been teething. I think she wants us next to her at night as it was only when we started to gradually move away from her at night that she started to kick off and funnily enough she sleeps right through if one of us is next to her. So I’m not sure having her loose in another room helps that at all. In the daytime she wants our other dog. He goes to day care and she’s so much more chilled when he is out. Similarly while he takes himself away upstairs when she’s a bit full on he then gets FOMO and comes to see what she is up to. A nice problem to have that they seem to like each other but it’s driving us bananas. We have some extended leave over Xmas and I’m hoping to put a plan in place we can try then without the worry of being sleep deprived and frazzled and having to work. Our older dog took a while to settle in for different reasons but this seems so much harder and while we’re not shy of the effort we just want to be sure whatever plan we’ve chosen is the right solution for us all.

Collie onwer here who has always crated collies so it is not a thing that collies do not like crates.

The trouble with treating her on a bed is that she will actually be on high alert waiting for the treat and be doining "pretend" calm. COllies are clever like that!

OP re the crate it sounds at the moment that she is being allowed to be distressed in the crate? eg barking whilst in it?

Which crate games are you doing? Susan Garratts?

The most important part of the crate games is the release cue and not the actual being in the crate.

Initially I would be sleeping next to her in the crate to keep her calm and no barking.

Let me know which crate games you are doing and I can help with the daytime

They sleep better when they can go out for a run in the evening

Yes that’s the games we are working through, as I said she’s pretty adept at these and has been picking them up very quickly. I’ve also been trying the ‘no barking in the crate’ section at the start of this guide but it doesn’t seem to be sinking in. She does struggle a bit with the release of these, she seems to want another retreat as opposed to wanting to come out and play.

I suppose we do let her bark initially but I was concerned letting her out right away would just teach her how to get her way. We have spent the first 3 weeks sleeping next to her, she goes down no issues but in the last couple of weeks have been gradually moving away, as in moving the camp bed. As we’d gotten to the door we’ve attempted just moving though to the sofa so still within earshot but actually out of sight once she seems to be asleep but if she stirs and sees we aren’t there we are back to square one.

So with the crate games your dog will happily go into the crate?
Happily sit at the back of the crate whilst you open the crate?
Will they stay at the back of the crate with the door open before you release them if you are at the other side of the room?

I do think you have two issues going on.

1. General separation distress when they are left. I would continue to sleep near them for the time being.

1. Being calm in the crate. This for collies is quite hard to do. Even the crate games can be done with high energy if you are a collie! I would look at increasing your distance from the crate during training in the day, and increase your duration of time in the crate between opening the door and your release cue.

I would also look at doing some of the exercises with the door open to encourage self control to stay in the crate.

I would look at increasing her exercise a bit. Not high energy off lead chasing but maybe another 25 mins sniffy walk before you start any crate training

@cherrypie66 she does get a walk in the evening, her sniffy walk as it’s dark then. She’s too young for a run with my husband at the moment (he runs with our other one) unfortunately otherwise he would take her on a evening jog.

@lingus she practically bounces into the crate and although not always 100% on the other two she’s very well self controlled before being released. It’s the same when we do ‘stay’ or ‘leave it’ so I think she understands crate = food which is what she wants.

You seem to have hit the nail on the head though with what’s going on with her. I was hoping to get back to our bed but if it needs longer for her to be comfortable then that’s what we will do.

I was also wondering about her exercise. Our older dog is a working breed mix and so long as he gets his needed amount and his puzzles etc he’s an absolute delight 😂 good to know we could up this a bit with her as have suspected it might help.

Yep so she is using the crate as a high energy training time - not a chilled out place (been there will some of my collies!) How can collies make sleeping a full on high adrenalin game

I would be making the release cue very very calm and only doing it when she is in a settle position eg not just lying down but lying on one hip.

The sphinx lie down for a collie is a high intensity position ready to herd! however the hip lie down does just generate a bit of physical calm to the dogs.

Over time I would only release her when she has been in the crate for a longer time.

She will be happily waiting for the release command for several minutes so increase the length of time.

If you can look at her breathing, when this slows down you can then gently release her and only then.

You should be able to add in you doing other things whilst she waits for the release command, so not just be standing near the crate, but making a cup of coffee etc and then building up to leaving the room and coming back to release.

@lingus this is really helpful thank you. Hopefully we can crack it by taking things a bit easier on her. I forget she’s also still very young and only been with us a short time. It’s funny how we’ve forgotten the highs and the lows from when we got her brother but we got there 😂

Not all dogs take to the crate, no matter how much training you do with them.

What is she like if she's crated in the day?

@icedcoffees She is distracted by a kong initially and goes in willingly for this. Once it’s done it’s barking and whining for about 10mins. I’m thinking now from the advice given that’s too long but I’ve read conflicting things about not giving in initially. She then gives up and sleeps for a couple of hours but we are sat feet away from her and within sight.

This morning we have left the crate open but she’s secured in the room with me while I work. She had a walk this morning, breakfast, some basic obedience training, followed by a mad 35 mins of toy throwing/chewing and she’s gone in a nodded off. I managed to get up and make a hot drink and she didn’t come out. I think a little bit more of this until she sees it as her place as opposed to the place where exciting training happens. We tried back to step one on the crate games but she was obviously over excited. Slowly, slowly 🤞🏻

Just gone out for a wee, 10 mins of toy throwing and now gone back in, crate still open, no fuss.