Seeking firmer dog poo! Vet against raw for my wcs

[willogswoo]

Morning everyone!

I have a 15 week working cocker spaniel.

He came to us on Royal Canin medium puppy. However his poop has always been quite soft and leaves an unsightly stinky residue on walks.

We have tried wainwrights (absolute awful farts on this and even sloppier poo on Salomon one) James wellbeloved (awful awful poo) and lastly on vets advice some Burns grain free but still have loose poo.

Everyone has suggested a raw diet but my vet is really against it. I explained I would not be doing it myself but buying a complete from somewhere like Paleo or Bella and Duke but she was not happy.

Any advice on food for firmer poo?

@PurpleBirch

Mind three are fed Millies Wolfheart. Firm poo and no smells.

Mine is too. When we first got her she was in Purina puppy food. We moved her into Arden which she wasn't keen on and then discovered MWH. There are little adjustments you need to make with regards to the amount you give (too much and very soft poos, too little and they are too firm). Mine eats the amount she should have if she weighed 10kg and she is 12.5kgs and that seems to be the right amount for her along with treats on walks and a bedtime Bonio.

Meant to add, she also had raw for a while. Nutriment. She loved it, but we just didn't have the freezer space to store it. Once we have our utility sorted out and have a second freezer, I want to get her back onto it.

I've raw fed my cocker for about 9 years (he's 10 now). I buy completes from Durham Animal Feeds. I prefer the raw as I can actually see what he is eating (I do keep kibble or tins etc in as an emergency).

Once the vet asked what I fed him, when I said raw I was expecting a lecture and he just asked complete or DIY. When I said completes that was the end of the conversation. I think sometimes you can get the DIY wrong, hence he wasn't overly concerned.

As for a comment earlier about an increased risk of germs etc, kibble has lots of germs in it too. I handle the dog raw meat exactly the same as I handle 'human' raw meat. Handle, wash hands afterwards, wash surfaces etc. Currently 36 weeks pregnant and have no concerns with germs going forward with a baby. No issues if handled correctly.

The only advice I'd say is, you do honestly get used to the smell of tripe haha.

I get the raw food out before bed, breakfast is defrosted on the bench overnight (covered) and his dinner is defrosted in the fridge in a sealed tupperware.

The main thing that stuck out to me is he’s only 15 weeks, so guessing you got him between the ages of 8-12 weeks you’ve only had him for 7-3 weeks.
Changing food over needs to spaced over at least a week, gradually mixing the food quantities (25old/75new, 50/50, 25old/75new then 100%new) and sometimes they have to be on the new diet for quite a while to see a change. Our dog was prescribed hypoallergenic food at one time, and the vet requested him be on the diet for 8 weeks to fully notice if it’s helping or not. I think you need to give it more time, it can be frustrating and a long process. Do you give any other treats during the day?

If the above doesn’t work then allergy testing could be the next step, wishing you luck.

Has your vet done a three day pooled Pooh sample to check for campylobacter, giardia, salmonella. All very common in puppies and would be my first thought in such a young dog. Pointless messing about with diet if you haven’t ruled these out .

Changing food I phase it over 4 weeks - I can recommend a brand that our dogs (with sensitive tummies) have used - we can nice big solid poos.

Older rescue with sensitive tum here. We’ve settled on a mix of forthglade grain free meat (not fish, doesn’t agree with her) trays, with a small scoop of Orjen fit and trim dry food. Without the dry food she is constantly on the scrounge for more food but the addition of the dry seems to keep her fuller for longer. Much more settled stomach on that combination

@Lou573

Does anyone have any further references for the risk of feeding raw? Would like to move pup to a high quality complete frozen raw diet but have small children and as much as I tell them not to let her lick them it falls on deaf ears. That said we fed our dog raw when I was growing up without issue and I’m sure it was less regulated in the 80s!

If you search on Mumsnet for Veterinari posts you will get all the scientific info on the risks of feeding raw. There are lots of posts!

Some of my dogs are fed raw so I am in no way anti but you do have to acknowledge the risks (there are some) and see if it works for you.

These are some of Veterinari links re risks of raw feeding - there are more

<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.vettimes.co.uk/news/certain-canine-raw-food-diets-massive-human-health-risk/" target="_blank">go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.vettimes.co.uk/news/certain-canine-raw-food-diets-massive-human-health-risk/

<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/01/11/raw-pet-food-trend-risks-ecoli-salmonella-owners-new-study/" target="_blank">go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/01/11/raw-pet-food-trend-risks-ecoli-salmonella-owners-new-study/

www.liverpool.ac.uk/infection-and-global-health/research/pet-health/raw-pet-food/

<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.foodsafetynews.com/2018/10/four-stec-infections-one-person-dead-after-exposure-to-raw-pet-food/" target="_blank">go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.foodsafetynews.com/2018/10/four-stec-infections-one-person-dead-after-exposure-to-raw-pet-food/

My border is on Bella and Duke . Small firm poo and doesn't fart either . She loves it . If you decide to go with Bella and duke to give it ago , PM me as I have a referral code .

I think you’re supposed to slowly introduce a new food (mix it with the old, add a bit more, bit more etc) then give it a few weeks.
I use Harrington’s and Cesar but mine aren’t working dogs. I’d choose something and stick with it for a bit.

Seriously. Ignore your vet. They're not the gospel. Ask another very and they'll have an entirely different opinion. What reason did your vet give??

Our dogs have never been better than they are now. All raw fed.

I heartily recommend Bella and Duke, Paleo Ridge, Henley Raw and others.

Unless you have a reason you can't try your dog on raw, your mad not to try.

We moved our dog to Harrington's grain free dry food which we mix with the grain free wet. Dogs poo's are much much firmer since we maid the change.

I add oat bran to my dog's food and his poos are great now. I also eliminated chicken from his diet.

Raw diet not allowed for my dog who is prone to collitis.

Our pup arrived on raw but we couldn't bear handling it and the thought of bacteria everywhere. Vet also very against it in puppies. So we moved to Pooch and Mutt, big mistake, then ended up on Royal Canin, better but not good, now on Barking Heads Salmon and all good. We came off all chicken, everything has chicken in it! And moved everything to fish. SO much better.
Feel bad about the raw as he was doing well, but just didn't work for us.
Royal Canin is often prescribed by vets but it has so much crap in it! It even contains ground feathers!
Barking Heads says its designed for food intelerances and seems to have worked for us. Also much cheaper than Lilly's Kitchen which is supposed to be good.

Canagan.

So my terrier has been on raw for 3 years - very small, very firm poos - looks the picture of health

However, her poo got too hard and she got an impacted bowel last week - she's now on a scoop of the kibble she had as a puppy (Lily's kitchen lamb) and her pops are back to being soft enough for her to poo easily

I've never found the raw difficult - I just keep it in the freezer (it's Nutriment) and defrost 4 packs in bottom of fridge

Interestingly my Pug has softer poos on raw so is not going to have bowel problems - still firm but not dead hard like my terriers was

I have a working Cocker too. He's been on raw since he came home as a pup (breeder fed him kibble, so he was transitioned over).

It's completely personal choice. To me, it just makes sense. To others, it doesn't. Vets included - they all vary in their opinion!

My Cocker eats an 80-10-10 complete raw mince. I give him raw bones once or twice a week, on top of this. Puppies can start on "soft" bones, like raw chicken wings.

Tripe is full of good stuff, as someone earlier said. Although my Cocker is actually sensitive to it! He had occasional tummy issues previously, and it turned out that the tripe was causing it. It's just very very rich. Now he can eat it just fine as long as it's mixed with another protein and given no more than once or twice a week. So if you do go raw and decide to feed tripe, just go slow and see how your pup responds to it. :)

We use Walker & Drake when travelling with him. Tribal is very similar. Just meat, sweet potato, and a few supplements. But he poops 3x as much on these foods compared to raw. It's just easier to travel with.

In terms of handling the mince, I don't really see it as being any different to preparing raw chicken for myself. If anything, there is less handling involved. I just cut the packet in half and drop the half-block into his bowl. I also only let him eat raw food or bones in his pen (and remove his blanket/bed first), then I clean the pen floor afterwards.

I would ask your vet for advice on which food. One of my rescues was raw fed. He had a terrible stomach vet advised chappie problem solved. I would not feed raw far too much bacteria.

There is a lot of information about vet worries for increasing the bacteria in dogs. I think if your dog is kept outside it would be fine however in a domestic situation the thought of raw meat droplets from salvia would worry me. We have an immune compromised family member so we are cleaning up anyway but this would be an additional worry. Vets are trying to advise families to own pets safely and they are not promotors of food types.

Our rescue lurcher was on 4 feeds of AVA kibble plus a tin of dogmeat a day to liven it up when we got him. We also tried Harringtons, and Skinners. All resulted in 4 massive poos daily and constant biohazard farts.
We switched him to Millies Wolfheart and we've never regretted it. He has 1 small cup twice a day with a tinned sardine mixed in, though he happily eats it without TBH.
Now does 2 perfectly acceptable poos a day and I can't remember when he last farted.
MW has no chicken wheat or any other allergens. It's all good quality human grade ingredients with no filler. Ddog likes it so much I use it for his scentwork. It also costs less than the lower quality kibble as it doesn't need stuff added to make it tasty.

Our vet isn't anti raw but did warn us about using a provider that wasn't registered I think with the PFMA but I can't remember. A firm we were using was potentially linked with some gastro issues.
We were also advised not to make the food ourselves because it's hard to get the balance right.
We now buy a complete raw food. It's brilliant and our dogs have lovely firm poo.

Complete raw here. When you're handling their poos twice a day it gets easy to tell if the bone content is getting a bit high - you can then switch to bone free for a few days.
Good hygiene at home is important for any dog food, defrosting, cleaning, eating areas.
My dog likes to lick piss off the ground, so his tongue never goes anywhere near my face if I can help it.