Would it put you off if..

[Possiblebreeder]

A breeder was fully health testing their breeding dogs (full health screens eg hip scores, DNA tests etc) but the dogs and resultant puppies were not Kennel Club registered?

It would put me off.

KC registration does not mean you are breeding to showing standards.

It does mean that all the relevant health tests have been done (nothing to stop breeders doing more), that the bitch is between 2-6 years old and has had no more than four litters, and no more than 2 c-sections.

I agree that doesn't guarantee that they're a good breeder, but the absence of those standards doesn't exactly show any better and gives greater scope for worse.

Also, it removes all progeny from eligubikitynfir regustratiin, so even if you got wonderful healthy pups, they aren't going to help improve the breed as a whole because they are no longer part of those who are known/guaranteed to be that breed.

And yes, very unscrupulous people will go to considerable lengths to pass off non-pedigree pups as pedigree, usually because of the higher price.

I'd always rather stick with a breed enthusiast type breeder (who will be happy to chat at length about COI, screenings etc) or a very reputable commercial kennels (probably found by the breed club, so wouldn't include those producing non-registered puppies)

If you don't know that working line cockers can of course be KC registered, then are you new to thus?

Those buying working dogs I agree will care more about the working reputation of the line (even though that does of course not prevent KC regustratiin as well) and that's all word-of-mouth recommendation. If you're sure you will get enough enquiries from those who work dogs (maybe they've seen yours in action?) then yes that will of course be a good way ahead (and indeed the odd out-crossing for performance reasons might make sense too).

It might take a while to grow that kind of reputation though. But do your dogs already compete successfully? Or are known to the working community some other way?

No, my dog is not kc reg as she is not a breed standard colour. In many breeds it's a good thing to step away from kc breed standard

It does mean that all the relevant health tests have been done (nothing to stop breeders doing more), that the bitch is between 2-6 years old and has had no more than four litters, and no more than 2 c-sections

No it doesn't. I know people who breed kc pups who have never had a health test done in their life. They also allow quite a level of inbreeding.

@liveforsummer

No, my dog is not kc reg as she is not a breed standard colour. In many breeds it's a good thing to step away from kc breed standard

Except you can register non standard colours…

“I know people who breed kc pups who have never had a health test done in their life. They also allow quite a level of inbreeding.”

But you can check that yourself online as a potential buyer in seconds and then not buy from them.

It’s not that KC registration is amazing and job done, you’ve found a good breeder, it’s that it’s so basic that I wouldn’t even bother looking any further into them.

I wouldn’t check the MOT history or service record of a car not registered with the DVLA either, but DVLA registration isn’t what I’m basing the purchase on.

@tabulahrasa but what would be the point I know her breeding going back generations on both sides . I know the bitch has only had one litter (farmers dog - no interest in registering) The only reason my dog would need to be kc reg would be so I could show her which I can't do as she is not a breed standard colour.

KC registration is by no means perfect, but it's the best chance we have of ensuring a 'level of quality' (I don't mean in breed standard here) and of tying health results in to a dog.

As Meloncurse said above ... 'I don't think anyone is saying that KC registration alone is the guarantee of a good breeder but lack of registration raises questions.'

I would not touch any breeder with a bargepole who did not register breeds that should be registerable, no. I would just assume one of the many reasons people have quoted above:

• Too old or too young
• Too many litters already registered
• Parents not purebred or too closely related
• One or both parents endorsed because there was a reason they shouldn't be bred from, which could be health related
• One or both parents stolen
• Etc ...

That said, there are very many puppies who are KC registered which are clearly not purebred too. As someone said above, non-standard colours can be registerered, and that's fine. However, show me a merle French Bulldog or the like, and I can tell you 100% that it is not purebred, whether it's registered or not.

Buying puppies is a crapfest these days and no mistake. There's no easy answer to it when advising people, and the changes to licensing laws have just made it harder.

[quote liveforsummer]@tabulahrasa but what would be the point I know her breeding going back generations on both sides . I know the bitch has only had one litter (farmers dog - no interest in registering) The only reason my dog would need to be kc reg would be so I could show her which I can't do as she is not a breed standard colour. [/quote]
But I don’t know any of that...

If the OP was planning one litter and had more than enough buyers lined up that all knew them and weren’t going to breed or show then sure it’s a moot point, but then they’d not be asking if it’d put people off.

But as a stranger, yes I’d be going, but if it’s eligible, why not do it? It’s an online form, it’s cheap compared to most things to do with breeding...and I’d just never even contact a breeder who wasn’t doing it, non standard colour or not.

“However, show me a merle French Bulldog or the like, and I can tell you 100% that it is not purebred, whether it's registered or not.”

There’s someone on my Facebook (a friend of a friend) who’s just had a litter of french bulldogs including a blue Merle - I’m desperate to comment... but I thought they were french bulldogs? but I can’t bring myself to be bitchy enough, lol

I suppose it also depends on the breed - mine is frequently not reg anyway and the price of the dogs tends to reflect that. I suppose if I was paying 5k for a french bulldog I might look for a kc reg if I didn't know the breeder from Adam (wouldn't buy under those circumstances anyway so I guess it's not important to me specifically, I answered on those grounds)

@tabulahrasa

“However, show me a merle French Bulldog or the like, and I can tell you 100% that it is not purebred, whether it's registered or not.”

There’s someone on my Facebook (a friend of a friend) who’s just had a litter of french bulldogs including a blue Merle - I’m desperate to comment... but I thought they were french bulldogs? but I can’t bring myself to be bitchy enough, lol

They'll charge the idiot buyers even more for their crossbreeds too LOL.

(In fairness, I am not suggesting that the current breeder doesn't believe they are purebred FBs, as they probably bought a merle pup or used a merle stud being told it was a fantastic rare-coloured FB.)

I agree with Meloncurse 'I don't think anyone is saying that KC registration alone is the guarantee of a good breeder but lack of registration raises questions.'
KC registration wouldn't be a gold standard in my eyes, but a minimum standard. I'd be concerned what the breeder was hiding.

@liveforsummer

I suppose it also depends on the breed - mine is frequently not reg anyway and the price of the dogs tends to reflect that. I suppose if I was paying 5k for a french bulldog I might look for a kc reg if I didn't know the breeder from Adam (wouldn't buy under those circumstances anyway so I guess it's not important to me specifically, I answered on those grounds)

See I don’t know anyone personally breeding both a breed I’d want and breeding how I’d be happy to buy from... so if I’m looking for a a puppy I have to look for a breeder I don’t know from Adam.

I was in touch with a couple of breeders last year, but ended up adopting a rescue mongrel instead. But, we might go to a breeder in a year or so, when current nutty dog is a bit older and not so nutty.

I don’t care about KC registration in terms of it being the be all and end all, it’s fairly worthless really, it’s just that it’s so basic in a breed that’s eligible that I’d never even contact somebody to ask why.

@Whitney168

(In fairness, I am not suggesting that the current breeder doesn't believe they are purebred FBs, as they probably bought a merle pup or used a merle stud being told it was a fantastic rare-coloured FB.)

Oh she used a Merle stud... hoping for Merle pups to make more money

She literally keeps a couple of bitches of fashionable breeds around to make money from, she’s on her third breed since I’ve “known” her. Breeds them till they’re too old, then gets rid and gets a new breed.

She’s not someone I have anything much to do with in RL, the odd small talk type conversation if we happen to be at the same persons house, but she ended up on my Facebook and now I keep her on it to go lol.

*“However, show me a merle French Bulldog or the like, and I can tell you 100% that it is not purebred, whether it's registered or not.”
*
Yet the kernel club will still allow the dogs to be KC reg. Assume any breeder will know which colours are possible though. You need at least basic knowledge of a breed in order to breed it in order not to come across completely stupid when selling the pups.

They'll charge the idiot buyers even more for their crossbreeds too LOL.

They won't - they'll come with a kc certificate saying they are pure bred which will be accepted by new owners because kc says so

See I don’t know anyone personally breeding both a breed I’d want and breeding how I’d be happy to buy from... so if I’m looking for a a puppy I have to look for a breeder I don’t know from Adam.

This is why I said it depends on the breed if the dog. I happened to know both my breeder and the owner of my dogs stud well however I would be open to buying one from an unknown breeder with research, and not being kc reg wouldn't put my off buying a working breed terrier as they are commonly unregistered. Even without knowing my breeder I'd have bought my pup with the information they were able to provide. If it was a french bulldog I guess you'd certainly want to look further in to why it wasn't and the risk of it being bred multiple times and or having too many sections is far more likely

I can’t understand how not agreeing with breed standard means you don’t register
It isn’t an organisation we want to be associated with any way, shape or form.

We don’t agree with the breed standards for many breeds eg excessive wrinkling, ridges in ridge backs, extreme Brachycephalic heads, excessively short legs etc etc etc.

We don’t agree with replacing working ability with looks to a specific standard in the working breeds.

We don’t agree with their stance on outcross for health.

We don’t show and would never breed a puppy for showing.

There is no requirement to health test breeding dogs, only recommendations and puppies can still be registered if born to affected parents which makes a mockery of having a health testing scheme in place.

They dont check up on breeders; assured or otherwise to make sure they are treating the dogs properly so again, it makes a mockery of having a system where registration is supposed to instil trust in the buyer.

They don’t come round and check
You are right.
They don’t.
On anything.
So aside from a fee to register them and a further fee to the buyer to transfer ownership (as I understand it) and the ability to enter a show if you fancy, what are they actually offering in terms of any benefit for dogs..?

Yes you check COI but it looks like you can DNA test parents anyway which would also tell you the COI.

If you don't know that working line cockers can of course be KC registered, then are you new to thus?
I know they can be registered, but not all working dogs are Kennel Club registered.
Sometimes they are registered to a different registry, sometimes not at all.

“Yes you check COI but it looks like you can DNA test parents anyway which would also tell you the COI.”

I can’t DNA test them as a buyer though...

I can check the COI of any litter on the KC website though - and the health test results of both parents and their relatives.

“I know they can be registered, but not all working dogs are Kennel Club registered.
Sometimes they are registered to a different registry, sometimes not at all.”

IME they are, with the exception of breeds that keep their own register instead (which makes it harder to check stuff as a buyer, but if I was looking at those breeds being registered there instead wouldn’t put me off)

Or working dogs that are types and not breeds - working terriers, lurchers or working sheepdogs that aren’t actually purebred collies.

It’s not just showing - if it’s a working breed we’re discussing, are they a breed that might compete in for e.g field trials or similar?

I had an unregistered rescue dog that went on to compete at international level (something that couldn’t have been predicted at the time of getting the dog) and lost out on titles due to having to having to compete in an ‘open’ rather than breed specific category.

Or working dogs that are types and not breeds - working terriers, lurchers or working sheepdogs that aren’t actually purebred collies
Off topic but this is exactly what I mean with regards to the Kennel Club and replacing ability with looks in working dogs.

A working jack Russell terrier is still a jack Russell terrier even if it looks nothing like the white and brown tiny parson lookalike kennel club ‘jack Russell’ and even it has a bit of say, patterdale or yorkie in it.
Jack russells were a breed long, long before the kennel club drew up a specific appearance and said that’s a jack.

Same as collies, a ‘working sheepdog’ that herds sheep and might have a bit of Kelpie or greyhound or welsh collie further back is every bit a border collie.
More of a border collie than a kennel club dog that has never seen a sheep and couldn’t herd.

There are plenty of un reg but pure bred collies, Jack Russells, parsons etc despite the fact they qualify. I suppose you'd want to see registration for an expensive rare breed terrier you were paying a fortune for but I can't imagine being put off a Jack Russell due to lack of kc papers.

“Same as collies, a ‘working sheepdog’ that herds sheep and might have a bit of Kelpie or greyhound or welsh collie further back is every bit a border collie.”

I know working “collies” that are only definitely about half collie...

But again - I wouldn’t be looking for a working sheepdog puppy as a pet. Not many people really should tbh.

But I have said several times, a breed eligible to be registered... so registered with the ISDS instead, no problem, working sheepdog that’s sort of a collie if I did something like agility, no problem, working bred lurcher where the breeder can tell you generations worth of history, sure, JRTs where the majority aren’t eligible anyway for no good reason, again, not a massive red flag.

But in a breed that’s usually KC registered - yep it’d put me off looking into a breeder further, and I’m assuming it is a breed that’s usually KC registered or again - it’d not have been posted. I know sheep farmers aren’t wondering about their really well performing almost collies future litter not being KC registered...

We don't know why breed the OP is planning to breed though so it's difficult to answer. I believe she used a spaniel as an example rather than that being her breed.