help me understand my dogs body language

[RoSEbuds6]

DDog is 6 months and is a Vizsla. She is a complete poppet and is very loving and cuddly, and is very chilled, so not really typical of her breed (who are often apparently very energetic and 'out there")..
DH and I are home so she isn't left and she has two walks a day. Both walks we meet up with other owners and puppies/dogs and she has a good play. We're in London, so lots of dogs, and lots of parks, so DD is used to meeting people and dogs.
We do lots of sniffy games, and walks, and training, and she is a wonderful member of our family. But...
When we take her out for walks, when we meet up with other people/dogs, she goes into complete craven/submissive mode, approaching with her tail tucked in, and just laying down when she meets a dog.
Problem - some dogs have started being quite aggressive towards her, not puppy play but real aggression in some instances and my research has led me to 'the ladder of aggression' www.facebook.com/1609455832619757/photos/the-canine-ladder-of-aggression-for-many-people-a-dog-growling-is-the-first-sign/1726571557574850/here which seems to say that what thought was submission and a sign of peace, is actually sign of aggression? Is that right? Previous dog was a terrier, so interactions were much more straightforward
What should I do? Any hints or suggestions would be much appreciated - thanks

My understanding of the ladder of aggression is that it's all the signs that can lead to an aggressive reaction, not that all of the signs are aggressive in themselves.
So submitting whilst a sign of peace would also be being scared and not wanting to be hurt, which can then escalate if she's not being listened to. As in - I'm submitting but I'm still being bothered so now I'm going to growl/

Ah that makes perfect sense @Claudia84

I have heard that Guide Dogs often get attacked because they are to submissive, and a) I don't know if that is true or not and b) how can I stop it from happening to my pup.
Thanks for replying

It sounds like perhaps she is overwhelmed by them. You could try to build her confidence when dogs come into sight and teach her to initially ignore them by using positive reinforcement every time you see a dog - use a clicker and click and treat? My dog initially was reactive to other dogs when I got him (jumping/barking/singing the song of his people) and this technique very quickly changed his behaviour so now when he sees a dog he looks at me and licks his lips expectantly!

Remember that your dog doesn't have to meet every other dog and it's useful for her to learn to ignore other dogs if you choose for her not to meet them.

Thanks @Babamamananarama that's a very helpful suggestion, I need to get her to want to be with me more, and other dogs as a novelty. She isn't really interested in a ball, so I worry that if she doesn't play with another dog, she won't get much exercise. I'll have to look for some more toys!

Not sure of the science behind it but I do know that all 3 of my dogs dislike by dogs who lie down and freeze.
Mine tend to also freeze and not know what to do and I can feel them getting stressed. I wondered if it is because they look like they are stalking us!

I would stop taking her out in big groups as the lying down/submissive behaviour suggests she's actually not very confident with the situations you're putting her in.

Working her brain will be a much better way of tiring her out than encouraging her to zoom around constantly with other dogs. So, doing things like keeping her on a lead and allowing her to sniff everything she wants to sniff, hiding toys/treats for her to find, teaching her tricks - things like "wait", getting her to sit/lie down when certain things approach her, teaching her directions etc.

I know big group walks with dogs are becoming more and more popular, but many dogs don't actually like them and find them quite stressful. I'm a dog walker myself and won't take anymore than three or four dogs at once as it's important they can have some space and plenty of attention from their handler.

I would also argue that she shouldn't be reliant on other dogs to be tired - while physical exercise/running about is important, lots of rough play could easily ramp up her adrenaline levels and cause poor behaviour.

So, I would drop the walks down to either solo walks or with one/two other (calm) dogs at the most, so she can learn to be a bit calmer and so she can learn that other dogs don't always equal rowdiness and play.

dDog approaches like Dobby, all humble and slinky. Most dogs are lovely, but a couple have been agressive. I feel like she doesn’t know how to introduce herself (which sounds daft I know) but I don’t know how to teach her!

@icedcoffees ooh excellent suggestions thank you. I agree it is probably too much for her, I will do as you suggest. thanks!

Sorry, no advice but she is absolutely beautiful 😍

Your dog is showing signs of stress and anxiety on meeting dogs. She is displaying behaviour that is asking the other dogs to stay away but they are taking no notice of her.

Soon her only option will be to up the anti and show aggression to get the dogs to stay away from her.

So the best way to handle this is to be her advocate and keep other dogs away from her and not make her mix in busy dog parks. If she is allowed to watch from a distance she is more likely to grow in confidence and want to approach other dogs. Be choosey in which dogs you let her interact with (when she is ready) so make sure it is dogs that you know or dogs that are calm.

Other dogs should not be exercising your dog not should she be chasing a ball at 6 months of age. Gentle walks with training and games thrown in will be much better for her.

You can teach her how to introduce herself. Give her the confidence that she will be safe and only let clam dogs approach her.

Sometimes you get an alpha dog, sometimes you get a beta one. At the moment I have a Zeta one and yes, she would show submission first, growl if approached and starts screaming as if she was being killed if a dog gets too near to her so I don’t let any dog get nearer to her than she is comfortable with. Not to keep her happy, but because many dogs get a pray drive when she is acting like a rabbit (she has been attacked already so I am not taking any chances any more)

She always goes up to other dogs @PollyRoullson and seems to really enjoy it when she is playing with the other pups (often a few months older than her) but I really take your point. I guess I thought it was all good for her development to play with other dogs, but the way you have said it does make sense.
We really enjoy exploring the park, woods and streams, so the ball was just something to add to the fun really.

Thanks @hm1610 she is such a lovely gentle loving girl too. We're very lucky to have her [love_heart]

I think from what you’ve said she sounds incredibly anxious and nervous around other dogs and I would stop taking her to big meets straightaway.

When you say ‘she always goes to the other dogs’, at what distance?

Because my collie at fairly close range, left to her own devices, will go to the other dog, but the majority of the time she will get nervous and start growling at them.
If she’s off lead and there is ample space she won’t approach and will walk straight past because really, 99.9% of the time, if she doesn’t know the dog she doesn’t really want to interact with them.

Given space, you might find that your Vizla
absolutely doesn’t want to interact and will ignore.

I've got a very nervy sprocker - she's now nearly 3. We did puppy classes, and then some 1 to 1 work with the trainer afterwards. She is much happier going on her lead if another dog approaches until she's assessed them....... you're still getting to know your dog, and it's a learning curve for both of you.

Thanks everyone (have namechanged) I will see if I can get our puppy trainer over for some 1 to 1 sessions in the park so she can see what's happening. You've all been very helpful and given me lots of food for thought.
Thanks

Well today's walk was quite interesting. We entered the park and a group of dogs were exciting. They were with a dog walker and dogs I recognised as being quite old, but nice. DD went straight up to them in a walking/sitting kind of way, having a small pee as they said hello. There was no pressure on her to go to them, as I was ready to walk off to the left. Lots of greeting of dogs and humans and then we were off. Then we met a group of pups about her age and again with the slinky approach, but they had a really fun 5 minutes tearing around before we carried on for the rest of the walk where she was on the long line, and we played together and kept away from the other adult dogs playing with their owners.
She had a lovely time, so I don't think she is anxious, as if she was, why would she seek the dogs out? (I'm happy to chat to the other owners, but equally happy not to).
I have learnt from this thread though, so thanks, I'd purposely kept away from other adult dogs, and just kept to trusted dogs of the same age or younger.

@FairySnuffs

Well today's walk was quite interesting. We entered the park and a group of dogs were exciting. They were with a dog walker and dogs I recognised as being quite old, but nice. DD went straight up to them in a walking/sitting kind of way, having a small pee as they said hello. There was no pressure on her to go to them, as I was ready to walk off to the left. Lots of greeting of dogs and humans and then we were off. Then we met a group of pups about her age and again with the slinky approach, but they had a really fun 5 minutes tearing around before we carried on for the rest of the walk where she was on the long line, and we played together and kept away from the other adult dogs playing with their owners. She had a lovely time, so I don't think she is anxious, as if she was, why would she seek the dogs out? (I'm happy to chat to the other owners, but equally happy not to). I have learnt from this thread though, so thanks, I'd purposely kept away from other adult dogs, and just kept to trusted dogs of the same age or younger.

Sorry the dogs were exiting, not exciting!

She had a lovely time, so I don't think she is anxious, as if she was, why would she seek the dogs out?

Hmm, her body language still ells me she's not comfortable around new dogs. That doesn't mean being too terrified to approach, it just means she's not quite confident enough to approach 'normally'.

I know it’s weird isn’t it. Nor sure quite what to do for the best, take her for walks where we keep separate, or carry on just seeing the nice friendly puppies.

I would do walks with people who you know have calm, friendly older dogs so you help to build her confidence. Another option is to ask a local dog walker if they can do some socialising/confidence-building walks with just one or two other dogs instead of a big group.

@icedcoffees have just reread your advice from yesterday

“ So, I would drop the walks down to either solo walks or with one/two other (calm) dogs at the most, so she can learn to be a bit calmer and so she can learn that other dogs don't always equal rowdiness and play”

I can definitely do this if it will help.

[quote FairySnuffs]@icedcoffees have just reread your advice from yesterday

“ So, I would drop the walks down to either solo walks or with one/two other (calm) dogs at the most, so she can learn to be a bit calmer and so she can learn that other dogs don't always equal rowdiness and play”

I can definitely do this if it will help.[/quote]
It might just help in the short-term to build her confidence :)

I walk a few young dogs who love going out with other dogs but don't want the constant rambunctious play that's common in groups of pups or adolescents.