Entire Males & Day Care

[JengaCupboard]

I have a large breed of pedigree dog whereby the recommended neutering age is min 18 months and ideally 24+. He is nowhere near this age as yet - still a baby... a giant one.

He attends a daycare 2-3 days a week on a farm in the next village to where I work which he loves. No problems at all so far, and training/socialising is going really well generally...

The day care provider has expressed that her terms (which I knew before sending him) include no entire males over the age of 12 months due to having reached sexual maturity between 9-12 months and risk of aggression etc. Dogs are welcome back 2 weeks post neutering.

If my dog isn't mature enough to be neutered for 6-12 months after this cut off date, am I to assume that his behavior will remain unchanged relatively speaking until this point, or should I realistically expect to have to arrange alternate care in the period between 12 months and his eventual neutering?

If anyone has experience of this I'd be grateful for your input. Thanks :)

I have a male giant breed who was unneutered until he needed age 7 for medical reasons. He had/has no behavioral issues.

When he was 4ish he went to daycare, it was initially fine but then after a few months the daycare owner got a couple of puppy bitches as clients, and she said she couldn't keep my lad on unless he was neutered. I just stopped sending him and used a local walker more, but it was a shame because he loved daycare.

@ashmts

Are you sure it's about behaviour/aggression? Our daycare T&C's state no unneutered dogs after 6 months but it's to avoid any accidental litters. That felt too early for me so we discussed with the owner and as he didn't have any entire/mature males at the time we waited a few more months to spay. Speak to your daycare, there may be flexibility. If there isn't, you need to respect their policy unfortunately.

If a daycare isn't able to separate dogs where necessary I'd worry about their capabilities tbh. Six months is way too early for most breeds and in season bitches shouldn't be attending daycare in the first place!

I have rottie experience...

If they’re going to get arsey, for want of a better phrase, lol... it tends to be around about 12 months. So yes, you can get hormonal unwanted behaviours before they’ve finished growing.

But things like aggression aren’t actually usually helped by neutering anyway.

Most pet rotties though, are show strain rather than working strain and show strain rotties are usually just big goofballs, they tend not to be as aloof with other dogs and don’t usually have the same sex aggression issues that some strains of rotties are prone to.

Early neutering is IMO really bad for them as a breed as they then go really leggy, but have such a heavy build that it’s bound to affect their joints... and as joint issues are a problem with them anyway...

Xi pup sulks for about 3 days if the groomer clips his coat too short so I can only the imagine the reaction if we lopped his bollocks off. I dont think he'd have anything to do with us ever again

@tabulahrasa thanks for that insight... I don't really know an awful lot about showing as he is very much just a pet in our house, but he did come from a showing household and parents/lineage held all manner of titles (of which I don't fully understand!!) All their testing data was great though, and I was waiting a long time for him - so hopefully he may remain the massive goof he currently is!!

I must admit i'm leaning towards not doing it at all currently... not the way I thought this thread would go, but the different insights from people is really interesting.

I don't know whether diverting a thread is really allowed but do any of you have any views on insurance at all? I have a policy currently but it's very expensive (£68 per month) and although it's whole of life cover maxed at £3k per year, i'm not sure whether it actually represents good value now I've really read the policy!!

@icedcoffees Depends on the daycare, mine is really small and family-run from the home so not much capacity for separation. And obviously they don't accept bitches in season but owners might not notice immediately/accidents happen, so it seems a responsible policy to me. And it's entirely possible they would be able to separate, my whole point was OP should speak to their daycare to establish the specifics and check if there's a work-around.

@JengaCupboard I have no experience with large breeds but 3k a year doesn't sounds enough, especially for that monthly premium. But if your dog has any pre-existing conditions (or has been to the vet for any reason other than vaccination basically) you might not be covered if you switch.

“but he did come from a showing household and parents/lineage held all manner of titles”

Most do come from show lines “working” (I mean really it’s just a different type of showing, lol) isn’t as big a thing in the U.K. so they’re more bred for looks and an easy temperament rather than drive.

“it's very expensive (£68 per month) and although it's whole of life cover maxed at £3k per year”

That’s not a lot of cover... I’d want double that at the very least, more if you can.

[quote ashmts]@icedcoffees Depends on the daycare, mine is really small and family-run from the home so not much capacity for separation. And obviously they don't accept bitches in season but owners might not notice immediately/accidents happen, so it seems a responsible policy to me. And it's entirely possible they would be able to separate, my whole point was OP should speak to their daycare to establish the specifics and check if there's a work-around.[/quote]
It really shouldn't depend on the daycare - licensing regulations state that daycares must have the ability to keep dogs separate if necessary.

Daycares should also not be generalising based on whether a dog is entire or not. The most aggressive, reactive dog I know was neutered as per the guidance at eighteen months. Some of the most chilled out males I know are entire. Daycares really need to take these things on a case by case basis instead of going down the road of banning all entire males. Forcing people to have their dogs neutered at six months of age is, IMO, highly highly irresponsible.

Yes, it used to be case that neutering was standard and everyone thought neutering would solve issues like aggression and poor recall (the idea being that it would stop dogs going after in-season bitches) but research shows that neutering can make dogs fearful which in turn can make them more reactive and aggressive. Many dogs need the testosterone to remain confident.

I don't know whether diverting a thread is really allowed but do any of you have any views on insurance at all? I have a policy currently but it's very expensive (£68 per month) and although it's whole of life cover maxed at £3k per year, i'm not sure whether it actually represents good value now I've really read the policy!!

I'm with Tesco and I pay £37 a month for my 3yo beagle - that gives us 15k per year of lifetime cover. I would really look to switch if possible - 3k a year won't get you very far at all.

Our last dog (springer) was never neutered and always had a very gentle temperament. I asked the vet about neutering as we now have a springer puppy and she said they’ve moved away from automatically recommending it.

She mentioned the chemical castration which lasts a few months and is something they recommend If a dog starts showing difficult behaviours, she said if it makes no difference then castration would be a waste of time.

Usually the aggression would happen from the neutered males as the smell is unfamiliar.
I think daycares are a little backwards with policy nowadays and it would be far better if they had the facility to separate dogs so that it wasn't an issue.

Any responsible vet suggests to a dogowner to neuter/spay their dog.it is however a much easier procedure for male dogs(similar applies to humans),unfortinately a lot of dogowners with male dogs have a very disturbed attitude(eg. the dog will loose its proper male ess and other similar ridiculous stories).I can only asume most posts here are from men.Anyway,my lovely Border Collie girl will be lucky to get spayed in november and doesnt have to put up with unneutered,thoroughly annoying males!

Any responsible vet suggests to a dogowner to neuter/spay theirdog
Nope. Not for male dogs as many posters have already said on the thread. That advice is outdated

unfortinately a lot of dogowners with male dogs have a very disturbed attitude(eg. the dog will loose its proper male ess
What on earth are you talking about? Maybe they don't want to put their dog through an unnecessary surgical procedure. One not recommended by their vet and that could have negative consequences for their dog

Anyway,my lovely Border Collie girl will be lucky to get spayed in november and doesnt have to put up with unneutered,thoroughly annoying males!
Lol

@Zeropointzero

Any responsible vet suggests to a dogowner to neuter/spay their dog.it is however a much easier procedure for male dogs(similar applies to humans),unfortinately a lot of dogowners with male dogs have a very disturbed attitude(eg. the dog will loose its proper male ess and other similar ridiculous stories).I can only asume most posts here are from men.Anyway,my lovely Border Collie girl will be lucky to get spayed in november and doesnt have to put up with unneutered,thoroughly annoying males!

I'm not quite sure whether to take this seriously or not, tbh

@XiCi

I didn't think neutering was recommended at all anymore. Also thought that the aggression problem was neutered males attacking entire males not the other way round. There's no way I'd get my dog neutered just to pacify a day care owner. I'd be looking at other options.

You are absolutely correct. Also i would add the cancers likely to affect intact males ie prostate cancers are much more treatable than testicular affecting neutered males,which is why the modern way of thinking is to leave intact unless exibiting anti social behaviours.

I'm going to add the flip side of this.

I have dogs who go to daycare. None are intact (all bitches). I would not be comfortable sending them to a day care with multiple intact adult males, because I've seen aggression explode out of nowhere between them.

If the daycare bent that policy and one of my dogs was hurt by an intact male I would consider the day care liable.

It's one thing not to have the policy (licensing permitting). It's another to have the policy and ignore it, because that undermines their relationship with their other clients. It also makes it difficult for them to decline future intact males, some of whom may present issues.

The bottom line is it doesn't matter what any of us think. What matters is your day care, and their rules and policies. The only way to find out if there's any flexibility is to ask them. So do that. Then figure out the way forward that's right for you and your dog in light of that knowledge.

Off the back of this thread I've spoken to the vet

We are booking him in for castration. Ten day min recovery and the cone of shame. Bless him, he will have to stay off the stairs for a while. He will hate not being able to go through all the rooms hunting down socks!!

Is our quote about right? £260 for a small Labrador?

@gardeninggirl68.yes,this price is about right for a boy castration.your dog will really thank you and is far less likely to have medical issues in later life.But most of all,he will be a relaxed boy without any of the horrible unnecessary aggression and constant humping.

My dog is on chemical castration, he is 2. We thought we would do this as he is a bit nervous before committing to castration. We don't plan on breeding him and actually he has never shown signs of excessive interest in a bitch. He stopped jumping at about 14 months and has no behaviour problems. Still not sure what we will do after the injection wears off; we'd only be castrating him for the dog walker.

Thanks for all your responses over the weekend - who know it was such an emotive topic!!

@Zeropointzero I see where you might be coming from in part, but I don't wholly agree. We have had entire males previously (mostly labs) which have had no undesirable behaviour patterns whatsoever, but I appreciate that this may not always be the case.

Having discussed with my partner and the breeder (and a so-far unanswered email to my vet) I think I am going to send him to daycare until such time they're not able to accommodate him, and make alternate provision thereafter. If he starts to behave in a way i'm not keen on I may look at chemical in the first instance. If in the fullness of time he is neutered for his benefit that's fine, but it certainly won't be to appease day-care.

I've read a lot over the weekend, and the general consensus certainly seems that it's no longer a standard recommendation. Especially for dogs of his size/breed type.

Sounds like a good plan OP

it isn't a standard recommendation

ours is entire and goes to daycare with no issues at all

he doesn't hump or mark and is in no way aggressive!