Collie excessive barking, at the end of my tether

[Newbeginnings2]

Please can someone help as I’m really at the end of my tether
I have a 15month old Welsh collie, he’s obviously super energetic as I expected from the breed and I walk him twice a day, once off lead for a proper run/chase ball etc on the beach
The problem is with his barking for attention, first thing in the morning while trying to get my daughter ready for school, in the evening when we’re trying to relax a bit, the whole way to the walk of we go by car, he just barks at everything or nothing, always at me at home and the only way to get him to stop is to remove him from the room.
It got really bad and I relented and tried a vibrating collar last week, for the first week it worked perfectly I honestly thought within a few weeks we could get rid of it completely, he was like a different dog, he started relaxing with us in evening and all the attention barking stopped, I tried to praise him loads for this new improved behaviour. Then just like that he has decided he doesn’t care about the vibration anymore and is back to the constant barking, I’m so disappointed and upset and it actually gives me headaches.
I just dont know what to try next. Is he just bored and needs a home that can give him more than I can? :(
I’ve had a trainer previously do a few 1:1 and he recommended a house lead which also worked for a while and then just stopped working too
He’s not been neuted yet but from what I’ve read that may not help anyway

Does he have access to everywhere in the house? Can you confine him to one particular room? What is the set up in the car? Can you cover crate so he can’t see anything to bark at?

I have heard if you train them to bark on command then you can train quiet. But not sure how well that actually works. It sounds awful I can well believe it gives you a headache

I have a collie and we did a holiday near a beach but had to stop taking her there as she became so hyper the the open space, the waves, the wind etc and constantly having her ball. She is much better and calmer on woodland walks and we don’t take ball just allow her to sniff. Would this help with calmness maybe?

You need a behaviourist who's really experienced with collies. There's a lady called Sue McCabe in Northumberland (Muttamorphosis on FB) who is absolutely brilliant.
She may be able to 'virtually' advise you if you're not local to her.

Thanks for you replies. He usually has access everywhere that I am but when he starts barking I try put him out of the room until he stops. He doesn’t have a crate just a basket, also in the car he’s in the boot with dog guard but can see all the other cars. I think getting a crate in the car and covering it may help, if I can fit one in the boot.
I’m lucky to live just around the corner to a country park so have the beach and woodland but I usually take the ball there too so may be worth trying that without the ball to see if it calms him
I will look Sue McCabe up thank you, will try anything and everything at this point, I’ve wanted a dog again for so long just really want to get this sorted so we can enjoy his company
I’ve been back and for on getting him neuted does anyone have any experience on if/how this has changed behaviour or calmed a dog down? His barking and behaviour does seem aggressive though he’s the friendliest dog with strangers, it’s just as if he wants to show dominance to me

Please remove the collar and put it in the bin. They are aversive and as you can see, they don't work.

I walk five collies as a dog walker - and they are all, without exception, ball obsessed.

Throwing the ball just hypes them up - if you're going to use a ball, why not try hiding it in say, long grass or behind a tree and ask him to use brain/nose to find it? It doesn't build adrenaline in the same way that playing fetch does, but he'll still be able to use his ball for fun.

The best way to tire a collie out is to use their brain - long lasting chews, snuffle mats, frozen kongs and lick-e-mats are all great ways of feeding him and keeping him busy while also tiring him out

We have a bearded collie and he is ball obsessed too. When one rolled under the TV unit he nearly knocked the telly off to try to get it. Also barks all day at anything and everything. The more exercise he gets the more he gets hyped up too.

No advice but I do sympathise.

Do get in a collie savvy trainer. This is pretty common collie behaviour and if not sorted out can be a nightmare. I have 6 collies and have had them all my life and you do need to be aware of them training you - they are very good at it

Do put him in a crate with a cover on in the car - all the movement whizzing past the windows can drive collies crazy. Their primary aim in life is to stop movement so trying to do when in a car is particualry difficult for them hence the barking and crazy behaviour.

The best way to tire a collie out is to use their brain - long lasting chews, snuffle mats, frozen kongs and lick-e-mats are all great ways of feeding him and keeping him busy while also tiring him out - I dont agree with this at all and substituting food for passive or active brain work is not a substitute for a collie at all. It may keep them calm when they have been fully exercised or had brain work. It will NOT be a subsitute for brain work. Chewing and licking will not tire out a collie. They need to be using their brain work not just chewing or licking. However calming activities are important but not a substitute.

I agree about ditching the ball throwing. Start by hiding the ball in their sight and asking them to find it gradually you can build up to harder hides and make then sniff more. You can also start cutting up a tennis ball and ask them to search for smaller sections of the ball.

Loads of games for collies as well so do play high arousal games and then ask for a calm behaviour. Collies need to be able to switch from high arousal to calm and they are really really good at this if they are trained to do so. So tuggy game and then ask for a down for example. Make sure you mix it up and ask for maybe one behaviour and then two behaviours and different behaviours each time.

Spend time teaching them to spin left spin right down go back, weave between your legs, go into middle, hand touch, roll over etc. The more behaviours your collie knows the more you can mix up training sessions. These training sessions can be added to your walk so no more extra time is required from you just spicing up the walk a bit.

At home calm rules! So train your dog to love their bed and reward calm behaviour. It is important to reward calmly so no praise or clicker of well done etc Just quiet treat delivery on to the bed. Watch out for action prompting! Collies will "Pretend" to be calm! they will out their head down look calm but interanally they are alert and are playing the game so reward the real calm behaviour.

If your dog is barking I would in the short term remove all attention BUT be prepared for your collie to add in some more annoying behaviour if the root cause is not dealt with.

121 collie trainer will save you a lot of stress and time - good luck collies are great dogs

it’s just as if he wants to show dominance to me Your dog is not trying to dominate you. Dominance theory has been well and truly debunked. Please avoid any trainer that still believes in it.

I dont agree with this at all and substituting food for passive or active brain work is not a substitute for a collie at all. It may keep them calm when they have been fully exercised or had brain work.

I don't think I said to use it as a substitute for anything - if it came across that way it didn't mean to.

I meant for meals - don't just feed out of a bowl and use lick-e-mats etc. to feed so they're kept busy for longer - licking is also very calming for most dogs.

Thank you for all the advice, hadn’t really thought about the ball throwing in that way and kept thinking he needed more exercise rather than learning calm behaviour. Going to look into more brain games, he does love playing hide and seek with toys also has a few puzzles but mastered them all.
Will look for a crate for the car so I can cover that. Can I ask what people mean by a frozen Kong? Is just the kong frozen or do you put something inside and freeze?

Have you tried teaching “ place” where you sit down and do something else and throw a treat whenever he is quiet and calm. I say ahah when she barks so she knows that’s not what I want. Also when I am cooking tea she knows that if she goes to bed and is quiet she gets the odd bit of carrot I am chopping up. She has worked out that quiet behaviour gets the carrot quicker than barking does.
The other thing I would say is that if you are doing fetch, we find frisbee is less obsessive than tennis ball

Can I ask what people mean by a frozen Kong? Is just the kong frozen or do you put something inside and freeze?

Fill a Kong up as normal and pop it in the freezer. You can use his normal food (either wet food, or mix his biscuits with water to make a mush) if you want, and then he can have his meal in a Kong.

I used to stuff and freeze buffalo horns for my beagle when he was younger - it took him nearly an hour to eat his dinner and he always slept afterwards!

Good luck with the frozen kong many collies feel a kong is way beneath them .

If your dog is already feeling frustrated hence the barking do make the kong really really really easy for them to start with or else you will have a stuffed frozen kong in front of you and a collie barking at it and you to sort it out for them.

If they have not had a kong before then do not freeze it just put in food that will fall out when they move the kong. However it is not unusual for collies to totally ignore kongs as they would rather be " doing" things.

Make sure when you give the kong there are no distractions about and your dog is already relaxed for it to be successful.

If your collie is already a kong lover then you can make it harder and make it frozen and more tightly packed etc.

This is very interesting. Our collie cross has started barking more and more recently and I e started to try and train him out of it.
I taught him to speak really easily,it took about 10 minutes,however,his barking has worsened since learning this. I started to try and train 'quiet' but he's so clever that he's started to bark,then stop on command as he knows he'll get a treat. I'm going to try and see if I can get him to stop once something has already set him off. Ironically,he won't bark when we are moving sheep,when I'd like him to,no matter how much I ask,but as soon as his job is done and he's tied up while we do whatever we need to do,he won't shut up.

I thought having a collie he would be easy to train, he does pick new things up very fast but also is quick to use them to his advantage too 🙈
He definitely trains me too, he usually has me climbing sandunes looking for where he’s hidden his ball for me!

sounds like a collie!

They are easy to train what they want to learn but harder to train what they dont want to learn as they work out ways to avoid it

Oh this is familiar OP, both the barking and how my Ddog has trained me to play hide-and-seek!

I need to get to grips with this a bit more too - at the moment I am mostly focusing on reducing barking stimuli but the next step I plan to take is to teach a shush command.

Try not to worry too much this is typical of collies, mine has not long turned 2 and has just started to calm down.

When my dog starts to have a barking outburst I firmly shout quiet and she eventually gives in, when she calms down I stroke and reward her.

You can also provide distraction from boredom with puzzle toys, kongs and a ball as the breed gets bored very easily and thrives on attention. If mine doesn't settle down which is very rare I give her a time out in her cage so she can have a nap. It is important to give younger dogs a time out because they usually act up when they are over tired. I hope this helps and remember you're doing your best.

Thanks all, feeling a bit more positive about it now I have a few more things to try, I’ve never had a cage for him but it is something my trainer suggested a while ago so I think it’s worth a go, leaving it open for him to use as he wants but may reduce his anxiety and think it will help with the car situation. Just got him some more squeaky squirrels to play find and seek at home with (his favourite) and hopefully with a combination of more mind games and time outs for him to settle it will make it easier 🤞
can I ask if any of you with collies had them neuted and at what age/did you have any change in behaviour? I’m torn between conflicting advice from vet and trainer

Neutering will not help at all and you are right may make things worse.

The last two collies have not been neutered. The previous two had undescended testicles so I had the undescended one removed and kept the other one at 18 months.

I would not neuter before 18 months.

Testosterone is a really useful hormone for collies in particular and it will not make any positive difference to the behaviour he is showing but may cause negative behaviour changes.

People will recommend chemical castration but on a personal note I find it easier to work on behavioural and training issues without it. (unless they are scent marking then I would go for castration but again not before 18 months old)

The extract below is from a recent study - that your vet should know about

Border Collie
The study population was 105 intact males, 85 neutered males, 88 intact females, and 121 spayed females for a total of 399 cases. In this sample 2–3% of intact males and females were diagnosed with one or more joint disorders, and neutering males and females was not associated with any evident increased risk in joint disorders. The occurrence of one or more of the cancers followed in intact males was 2 percent and none for females left intact. For males, there was a significant increased risk in one or more of the cancers to 13 percent with neutering at 6–11 mo. (p

That’s interesting and similar to what my trainer said, his attitude was definitely not before a year if at all as I mentioned the vet had recommended doing it a lot earlier than a year old