Socialisation

[PollyRoulson]

I have been pondering about a previous thread on here (yep I know not allowed on Mn!)about socialisation.

It is interesting that dog training has changed a lot in the last 20 old years and most people are now happy that dominance has gone and are used to more positive training methods. However the one thing that has not changed is our view on socialisation.

Maybe 10 or so years ago you would go to a trainer who would give you a socialisation list to work through. Your dog had to meet 100 new people and at least 10 different dogs every day. The people needed to be different eg be young old, wearing a hat, carrying an umbrella or witches hat, the dogs had to be of different breeds eg collies, boxers, spaniels, black dogs, white dogs big dogs little dogs etc

You had to take your dog to hundreds of different locations and let people touch and interact with your dog

This approach to socialisation is still being pushed today and it is incorrect and damaging.

Has this improved things for our dogs and us? This method of socialisation has so many pitfalls and causes so many issues for the dogs and owners.

The socialisation window is not a magic number of weeks or days it is life long. The puppy socialisation window does not mean your puppy can experience everything from good and bad encounters and benefit from them.

Puppies are not bombproof – one negative experience will hugely outway the positive experiences your puppy may have. So meeting 10 dogs a day by the law of averages at least one of those will not be a positive experience. That encounter will cause more problems than the 9 positive encounters.

Alternatively, your dog does have 10 positive encounters and then will actively seek out dogs to interact with. Maybe cute with your 6kg puppy but a major issue when they are a 30kg dog.

Positive short quality experiences are valuable to your puppy.

Do not let people stroke and approach your puppy – have a phrase ready to stop this from happening

Be your puppy’s advocate and turn away from the playful out of control dog approaching your dog.

Reward your puppy for seeing the dog and change direction.

Allow your dog to direct the socialisation – if there is a situation they do not like treat and reward immediately – do not return to that situation to “get them used to it” for several days. If you do need to revisit make the visit shorter and add in greater distance to dilute the experience.

Have off days when your puppy can decompress and go nowhere

Train your puppy to play and interact with you in the new situations not to be bombarded with the environment – if this can be achieved you will be able to take your dog anywhere.

Train your dog around other dogs in the distance to focus on you not to interact with the other dogs and owners.

Go gently, go slowly and do not try to fit in the 100 people and 10 locations and 10 new dogs – unless you want a frazzled dog that you will spend the next 10 years desensitising.

Do not panic that you have to fit the socialisation into the small window. If your dog has learnt you have their back, you will not put them in situations that overwhelm them, if all interactions are positive you have a dog set up for life and a dog that will still be able to deal with novelty even when they are old dogs.

I recently linked to the Sophia Yin checklist, without thinking. It can be a useful tool for the sorts of things dogs need to be ok with, but I forget that, particularly due to the tick boxes on the form, some people may interpret it as ‘I need to get all this stuff in NOW’ and rush to go through it all with uncontrolled/forced exposure.

My view is that building trust, confidence and resilience are the most important things we can do for our pups. I think my experience of BAT training with a rescue dog that was unable to be socialised at all as a pup, due to illness, helped shift my focus in this direction. Once they feel they can trust you to keep them safe and you have built their confidence they are much better equipped to handle any new experiences/interactions in later life.

As for puppy play parties. Honestly, I hate them. I haven’t been to one since the early 90’s and I only went to that one once. I can’t believe they are still being run. Same with advising daycare groups to ‘help with socialisation’.

@PollyRoulson

I have been pondering about a previous thread on here (yep I know not allowed on Mn!)about socialisation.

It is interesting that dog training has changed a lot in the last 20 old years and most people are now happy that dominance has gone and are used to more positive training methods. However the one thing that has not changed is our view on socialisation.

Maybe 10 or so years ago you would go to a trainer who would give you a socialisation list to work through. Your dog had to meet 100 new people and at least 10 different dogs every day. The people needed to be different eg be young old, wearing a hat, carrying an umbrella or witches hat, the dogs had to be of different breeds eg collies, boxers, spaniels, black dogs, white dogs big dogs little dogs etc

You had to take your dog to hundreds of different locations and let people touch and interact with your dog

This approach to socialisation is still being pushed today and it is incorrect and damaging.

Has this improved things for our dogs and us? This method of socialisation has so many pitfalls and causes so many issues for the dogs and owners.

The socialisation window is not a magic number of weeks or days it is life long. The puppy socialisation window does not mean your puppy can experience everything from good and bad encounters and benefit from them.

Puppies are not bombproof – one negative experience will hugely outway the positive experiences your puppy may have. So meeting 10 dogs a day by the law of averages at least one of those will not be a positive experience. That encounter will cause more problems than the 9 positive encounters.

Alternatively, your dog does have 10 positive encounters and then will actively seek out dogs to interact with. Maybe cute with your 6kg puppy but a major issue when they are a 30kg dog.

Positive short quality experiences are valuable to your puppy.

Do not let people stroke and approach your puppy – have a phrase ready to stop this from happening

Be your puppy’s advocate and turn away from the playful out of control dog approaching your dog.

Reward your puppy for seeing the dog and change direction.

Allow your dog to direct the socialisation – if there is a situation they do not like treat and reward immediately – do not return to that situation to “get them used to it” for several days. If you do need to revisit make the visit shorter and add in greater distance to dilute the experience.

Have off days when your puppy can decompress and go nowhere

Train your puppy to play and interact with you in the new situations not to be bombarded with the environment – if this can be achieved you will be able to take your dog anywhere.

Train your dog around other dogs in the distance to focus on you not to interact with the other dogs and owners.

Go gently, go slowly and do not try to fit in the 100 people and 10 locations and 10 new dogs – unless you want a frazzled dog that you will spend the next 10 years desensitising.

Do not panic that you have to fit the socialisation into the small window. If your dog has learnt you have their back, you will not put them in situations that overwhelm them, if all interactions are positive you have a dog set up for life and a dog that will still be able to deal with novelty even when they are old dogs.

Is that you Lauren? 😂

I agree with everything said here. Puppy socialisation is pushed so so hard. All the local dog fields run them constantly. You sign up for your age/breed/size and go along to allow a puppy play frenzy! And they are very popular. I take my dog out on a lead and I am constantly approached by other puppy owners and also adult dogs to “let them say hello” like they are providing some socialisation service to us.

To be fair I have had dogs my entire life, I attended training aged 8 with our chihuahua and never ever been advised to over stimulate.

Socialisation, as far as I was aware then and now was just getting your dog to not be terrified in new situations. But over doing it had the opposite impact.

My youngest 2 are rescues and that's what the rescue always advises. Not loads of visitors in the first few weeks but a few spread out over the weeks, as an example.

I got my dog 10 years ago and I wasn't told anything like that.

Yes, the trainer gave us a list of things that puppies should get used to such as wheelchairs, baby buggies etc and oddly men with beards and people in hats. A lot of the things on the list we never encountered, probably still haven't, but 100 people and 10 different dogs a day? Never.

I was also never told by the trainer that the puppy had to achieve the completion of the list by a certain time.

I would have been lucky to have passed 100 people in a month, let alone in a day, and 10 dogs? Again that would have taken some doing.

And no advice to go to loads of different locations either.

We went to places that were calm and quiet, no puppy parties for us, and we walked, played together and trained a bit.

In fact it wasn't until my dog was well past the puppy phase by quite a few years that I started seeing groups of 'playing' dogs in my local park, and those were only at times when the 'after work' people came out to walk their dogs; my dog kept well away from them as she's never like dogs in over excited groups.

I did allow my, then, puppy to be stroked by people as she clearly enjoyed it, and still does.

She's always been very calm around people though, and never runs up to them but waits to greet them if they say hello to her.

Letting her be stroked by the few people we met, who wanted to stroke her, has not left her traumatised. In fact her view of people is that they are kind and enjoyable to be with.

I think any sensible, and sensitive, dog owner should be able to judge what their dog is happy with and what it can deal with.

Obviously, no puppy can deal with meeting 100 people and 10 dogs in one day.

I broadly agree.

The way I see it, you want them to be exposed to dogs and people and livestock, not necessarily have to interact with them. So they see big dogs and small dogs and white dogs and brown dogs and fluffy dogs and smooth dogs, and pushchairs and shopping trolleys and tall men and noisy children - all from a distance where they feel (and are) safe.

I do try and get my puppies used to strange things and novel smells, noises and surfaces. So the young one has been jumping in and out of some abandoned truck tyres for months, looking for treats, and I was really pleased when we went to meet the older one as a puppy, and I saw she was getting used to carpet, lino, vet bed, an old duvet, grass, gravel, bare earth and concrete - and that there was another (gentle and maternal) dog in the house.

I didn’t see the point of puppy socialisation groups for my last dog - they all seemed to be at the same level of impulsive silliness (of course, they are puppies!) so you have none of the checks and balances you get with careful introductions to a range of dogs at different ages.

I have had a lifetime of dog ownership. I have never 'been to a trainer' as I have never felt the need. The only trainer I have come across was a complete charlatan, rather cruel, and I wouldn't have trusted her with any animal. All my dogs have all been level headed and pleasant to be around, with good manners (they have all been small breeds). I have never heard of these socialisation goals either! In the past couple of days my 16 week puppy has walked round a travelling fairground, acted as a 'greeter' on the village green, met some goats and spent a considerable amount of time examining a dead seagull. And so it goes on, surely. Every day is a new and exciting opportunity for a puppy, I just go with the flow. Eventually they are grown up and not easily fazed by what they meet. I can't see why I would need a trainer to advise me tbh.

I do try and get my puppies used to strange things and novel smells, noises and surfaces. So the young one has been jumping in and out of some abandoned truck tyres for months, looking for treats, and I was really pleased when we went to meet the older one as a puppy, and I saw she was getting used to carpet, lino, vet bed, an old duvet, grass, gravel, bare earth and concrete - and that there was another (gentle and maternal) dog in the house.

I totally agree with this and tbh most of this can be done by the breeder. Equally this kind of socialisation can be done in your own home in very controlled situation so is easy to make a positive experience.

With the collies we also do a lot of work on noises but again this is done in controlled situations in an environment they are already comfortable with and at a level they do no react. So much easier to control in your home than out and about.

i'm struggling with my lab...considering a trainer but i dont know now

he's almost 2 and become reactive. and all training when on a walk goes to the window until i get quite forceful and insist. he catches a scent and he HAS to track it...its become worse than ever last couple of months

got a halti which does improve things but i'm going to have to do something

@gardeninggirl68

i'm struggling with my lab...considering a trainer but i dont know now

he's almost 2 and become reactive. and all training when on a walk goes to the window until i get quite forceful and insist. he catches a scent and he HAS to track it...its become worse than ever last couple of months

got a halti which does improve things but i'm going to have to do something

There are some amazing trainers who can make a huge difference to your relationship with your dog.

A good trainer will really help you.

100 people per day? Wow I never heard of that number. Lots of situations and lots of people yes but definitely at my dog's pace.

Had my first dog as an adult 22years ago and never have I been given a check list or told to meet 100 people in a day. Maybe I was lucky as my first training class were run by the amazing Elizabeth Kershaw one if the doyennes of modern training.

Well I've had dogs for over 30yrs - belonged to 3 different dog training clubs - have never heard any of that.

Are you in the UK @PollyRoulson? because this doesn't sound like any training regime I've come across here.

Good old Ian Dunbar started the number of people you needed to meet each day and still promotes it.

@PollyRoulson

Good old Ian Dunbar started the number of people you needed to meet each day and still promotes it.

That's not a name I've heard in many years - he moved to the USA didn't he? I've got more involved in training again since I retired - first with a local "KC good citizens" focussed training club, then an obedience / agility focussed one. Both times with new pups. I haven't come across his name or heard this advice. 🤷🏼‍♀️. Has anyone on here recently apart from the OP? Am I the outlier?

@catsrus, I heard him interviewed on a podcast not long ago.

I'd not heard of the 100 people a day thing, and tbh it wouldn't work where I live unless I went to school chucking-out time every afternoon. And even then we'd struggle for them all to be new people. And the squealing teens would swamp and terrify the puppy....

I think Ian Dunbar did a lot for dog training, and he is willing to discuss and debate with people he might not agree with about everything, which is to his credit.

And lovely to be in agreement with you, @PollyRoulson. You probably find me a bit contrary, but we do both love dogs and want them to have happy and fulfilled lives.

God that sounds like a total overface for dogs!
We've done some socialisation with relative's puppies and done village based things (bench at the park, carry to the shop, watch the cars etc), one trip into the local town for market and pets at home. That seems enough for a young puppy, surely so that they're not overloaded. Once mine is happy in the village and seeing the cows, sheep etc I'll step up the contact to busier places etc.

Is this the right plan?

Ian Dunbar made the first move into postive dog training I am amazed that dog trainers have not heard of him .

He was a vet who moved into behaviour probably the first of his kind. His methods have pretty much stayed the same whilst other trainers have adapted. However he had a lot to offer and stood his ground and promoted a very different type of dog training 25 years ago. His book The Perfect Puppy book was extremely well known and still being sold. Although there are better ones now.

He has a flourishing online training company and freely gives his time for no payment to promote dog training.

This is spot on @PollyRoulson - you need a blog!

I read an Ian Dunbar book a long time ago so may not be remembering completely accurately but the message I took was 100 people in total during the first 12 weeks, not everyday! surely that would be impossible and a bit crazy!

Yeah, it's 100 people in the first 3 months, and I think he meant well. In retrospect, the sex stereotyping is hilarious.

"A Hundred People

Capitalize on the time your pup needs to be confined indoors by inviting people to your home. Your pup needs to socialize with at least a hundred different people before he is three months old. I know this may sound like a bit of an ordeal, but it is actually quite easy to accomplish. Twice a week, invite different groups of six men to watch sports on TV. Generally, men are pretty easy to attract if you offer television sports programs, pizza, and beer. On several other nights a week, invite different groups of six women for ice cream, chocolate, and good conversation. (Or the other way round—you know your friends better than I do.) On another night of the week, catch up on all of your outstanding social obligations by inviting family, friends, and neighbors for meet-the-puppy dinners. Another tactic is to bring your puppy to visit your office for the day. Or, have a puppy party once a week. Above all, don't keep your puppy a secret. One of the great things about puppy socialization is that it also does wonders for your social life!"

Ian Dunbar, 2007

yeah apart from the awful stereotypes I don't think the advice is bad - it is good for pups to get used to different people. I think it's just important to exercise some common sense too e.g puppies also need lots of rest time so don't invite people round all day everyday and if puppy is getting overestimated or anxious then you can scale it back a bit

Oh I'd heard of him - but that was about 10 pups ago - no idea he was still alive, certainly hadn't associated him with such extreme views on socialising. Im sure I probably read his books back in the day, but obviously didn't take any of that on board. I'm just surprised that he has that much influence in the UK in recent years. As I say, not come across any of those training beliefs expressed by anyone I know.

I totally agree with @PollyRoulson.

She may have used extreme examples but people are being encouraged to push every environment for their puppies in a short space of time. This is not just an Ian Dunbar issue it is the way socialisation is pushed. You have until 16 weeks and then if your dog has not experienced it they will be buggered for life. So much harm is done in these 16 weeks.

Threads on here have said you have to do all this now or it is too late. The general trend is to push socialiation. No wonder we have dogs with issues.

Socialisation needs to be a non event, a short calm encounter.

I also do not ever let people pet my puppy when it is being held in my arms. The puppy has no choice and has to accept the contact even if they do not want it. When the dog is on the ground and I can see their body language I may allow the interaction if my dog will enjoy it. If not I will be my dogs advocate and not let it happen.