Can anyone decipher my dogs body language at socialisation class - trying to decide if I should take her back or not

[Turquoisesol]

So I have a 6 month old border collie and keen to “socialise” her a bit I took her to a socialisation class. It seems fairly well run. It is for age 6-9 months and we do practise loose lead walking etc then at the end they play together. As my dog is on the timid side I can’t decide if I am overwhelming her and doing more harm than good. 4 dogs there but could be up to 6. Two labs who were larger and older than her and one spaniel. She is more comfortable with spaniels as she finds labs a bit intimidating I think just due to their size. During the free play she joined in, ran around, came back and hid between my legs a few times when she wasn’t sure. Hide under bench a few times but came back out to play and she licked the other dogs faces a lot also did a lot of lying down and submissively showing tummy. She looked relatively comfortable and like she was enjoying it, but quite hyper stimulated by it all. I am just concerned that if I end up scaring her I could actually cause problems where there currently aren’t any. Can anyone advise?

I think that behaviour shows she feels secure with you but wants to explore with you as her base - a bit like toddlers do at groups.
The submissive behaviour is her showing she is not a threat and also letting them know not to hurt her - lots of puppies do this.
Perhaps keep the sessions short and sweet and build up the time gradually.
I’m not a do behaviour expert but that’s how I would interpret my dog behaving like that.
What does the class leader say?

I asked the class leader and she thought is was ok. She was the most insecure looking in the group through. The two labs played very boisterously with each other but they were quite good not to do the same with her.

I think dogs are quite good at knowing which other dogs are up for playing and which dogs aren’t. It seems to be the poorly socialised ones that just keep pestering and need a little telling off from an older dog to remind them of their manners!

I think her behaviour sounds okay. Does she initiate play at all? Go out to greet other dogs?

Something else you could do is have an off-lead walk with a friend with a friendly dog. Only having one other dog to think about, and the distractions of being outdoors, will make it less overwhelming for your collie.

Yes she does initiate the play sometimes.
I don’t really have many friends I can dog walk with. Not with suitable size/age dogs. Although that would be better I think

Collies are generally not known being very sociable butterflies and I want her to be able to cope if a big bouncy friends dog comes up to her on a walk. So she doesn’t panic.

*big bouncy friendly dog

Her behaviour sounds okay to me but honestly I'm not a big fan of chucking a bunch of dogs in a room and encouraging them to socialise - it's too unnatural.

I think you'd be better off finding a friend with a well-socialised dog and going with them on some walks. If none of your good friends have dogs, it might be worth approaching a local dog-walker or trainer to see if they can pair your dog up with another for some walks occasionally.

The reason I say that is I think it's better for socialisation to take place outdoors on neutral territory where each dog has plenty of space to avoid the other if necessary. Whereas indoors, the opportunities to escape are fewer, and there are more dogs too.

Good luck!

Thanks I do agree a walk would be better and I will look in to this idea. It is actually outdoor in a small field though, not indoors. She definitely wouldn’t like it indoors.

My dog is lovely and mild mannered when on neutral territory but is not very keen on visiting dogs, especially ones that pick up his tennis balls. It must feel like someone coming round and trying all the clothes in your wardrobe!

I would be careful very careful in this situation. I would ask the trainer to allow your dog to only interact with one dog at a time. At regular intervals hold the other dog back and see what your dog does. If they go back to initiate play then continue for a few more seconds if your dog goes off, sniffs , etc then stop more play.

Showing tummy is often misintrepreted by humans, it can often mean in dogs language a polite stay away request. The dog lying on its back is able to create distance by using their legs. It is not a happy come play with me position and I would interupt play if my dog was showing this behaviour.

You need to go very carefully in this situation because if your collie has to "defend" herself you will have a fearful dog for a long time.

There is no way I would let a collie who is showing signs of discomfort bundle in with 6 other puppies ever.

Also puppy on puppy socialisation achieves very little just teaches dogs to rough house and ignore their owners.

Socialisation with dogs needs to be a none event for the dog, it needs to teach them the ability to focus on the owner and ignore the distractions, to be able to walk past dogs without interacting.

I really do hate the puppy bundle events - they teach nothing positive. I love puppy classes and I do love puppy games and having fun but not the puppy bundle sessions.

I wouldn’t take my dog to a puppy group like that, no. For all the reasons explained above! Basically the thug like puppies just get to perfect their behaviour and the shy pups get pushed about, no good for any pup.

My collie pup is a similar age and most of his dog socialising is with older, calm dogs I know and trust. I keep an eye on other dogs I see on the park and if they look friendly non lunatics I may choose to walk by, polite sniff and move on. He does have a good play mate in a collie a bit older, they run nicely together however we introduced slowly and I and the other owner keep an eye on any play, call them apart regularly etc.

I think the difference is the dogs are doing the lead walking/training first which is teaching them control and that they can’t play with other dogs all the time.
Then the end is to teach them how to nicely play with other dogs.

She is obviously a submissive dog but she did keep leaving you to join in so I think as long as she is still doing that, I would be ok with it.

Im in a similar situation to you OP, have a 4 month old Collie who has to suss anyone out for a few seconds before he'll come to you...we are going to puppy obedience classes but to be honest we are really going to get him used to places, people and puppies, he can already sit and stay etc!!. He does the similar thing to your BC, goes to approach then backs off, before going back again. Im not sure if its confidence or the breed, my DD collie doesnt mix with other dogs, just walks calmly by which is what im aiming for. I posted on here a few days ago where I went to a local doggy group and it was soooo loud with pulling and lunging dogs, that scared the bejesus out of him and I quickly left.

Thank you I really appreciate your replies and it is interesting that those with collie pups have had similar experiences/concerns. I think I may go with my gut and not go back just to err on the side of caution. Yes ilikewinter having a dog that calmly walks past and doesn’t interact with other dogs is the ultimate goal for me too.

I like the idea polllyroulson gives of asking the other dogs to be held back to see what she does. I actually did think to ask this in the day at the start of the session but I get I would be asking for special treatment above other dogs who are also puppies and paying for the session in the same way I am. So I was too polite to ask. When she started showing her tummy lots I did want to stop and take her away as I wasn’t sure it was right. But it’s difficult to stop the play at that point. Anyway, luckily it was only about 5 minutes they were playing so didn’t go on too long.

Mm, to be honest, I'd say your dog sounds overwhelmed by the situation. Licking faces is also a pretty intimate thing for a dog to do, and dogs tend to do it when they're freaking out and unable to read other dog's signals, so they overcompensate by being overly friendly to try to show that they are not a threat. But most dogs don't usually take too well to this, unless they are super tolerant or know the other dog well.

I'm not a behaviourist though! I run a dog walking business and have a dog, but it's just my take on it.

I'd go with what other people have suggested and see if you can find a way for her to have one to one play dates and walks. If not through the socialisation group, then possibly through a trainer who can bring one of their dogs along and help you to decipher her behaviour.