This is an AIBU

[catinboots21]

Okay my view is somewhat coloured because I foster rescue dogs, but here we go.

Family member has been wanting a dog for a long time. She would give one a good home - kids not small, massive garden, PT working, lots of support. No probs there then.

She called me today saying she has bought a designer dog. It's a something-poo. Obvs I had to bite my tongue but hey ho each to their own. But on elaboration she explained that she's paying 1k for this pup that would normally cost 3k 😱😱😱😱 On the proviso that SHE PROVIDES THE WOMAN WITH A LITTER OF PUPPIES WITHIN 2 YEARS

I have no words. Am I crazy thinking this is abhorrent?

@Mantlemoose

Typical dog breeders. My MIL is one (crufts etc) but it's a business and all her dog friends are the same. They're bred to show, they're not pets and from what I can see bred until they're past their best and then sold on/pets. This is one of many reasons I no longer speak to mil.

This is NOT typical of ethical dog breeders! Your MIL may do it but I don’t know if anyone so unscrupulous.. and before you ask I too am an exhibitor, and judge ( championship show level .or as you put it, Crufts etc) & have been showing & breeding for 50+ years. I’ve never come across anyone like you describe They do not have 3 litters a year, most only let a bitch have two litters in her lifetime & yes, are then kept as retired pets. You’ll find most do have lots of dogs with all the retirees.

And to add:-
No you are not crazy.

This is usually referred to as Breeding Terms
Can often mean they will have the bitch back for a litter or if you have one they will choose stud and take first pick of litter.
If a dog used at stud they will choose who he can be used on. It’s primarily so they can control their line.
You’d expect it more in the very rare at risk breeds though, personally, I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole.

Essentially the breeder will in essence have full control of the dog and will remain in their name under their affix. But as this puppy is a crossbreed, an unrecognised breed at the Kennel Club, I cant see the point of what the breeder is up to. They can’t hold an affix, their line is impossible to fix being essentially a mongrel, they can’t register the puppies with the Kennel Club nor enter any official shows, so what’s the point.
Incidentally, I’m both gob smacked & disgusted at the extortionate prices being charged for theses so called “ designer” breeds...mongrels/ crossbreeds no matter what fancy name they choose to use.
I expect to get flamed for this.

£3k?!

Would it even be ethical to breed from a something-poo? Genuine question. That would make a rather confusing cross?

This is just awful.

Its not ethical at all. Its total bullshit. A litter 'within 2 years'. How old is this dog going to be when breeding is expected.

I am pretty horrified. But also at the price tbh. Not sure 3k is an accurate estimate tbh.

I have actually just adopted a young poodle Cross that was surrendered to the rescue. She is lovely. My spaniels aren't that impressed yet. But not a chance would I have paid 3k for her.

Thank you @Darklane and everyone else for your knowledge and opinions. You have given me information meaning I can articulate myself better.

Personally, I'd run like the wind from someone breeding under this arrangement. No way any dog of mine will be put through a risky pregnancy (as all are) to save me £2k.

“Who pays for all the health scoring, possible C section for bitch etc
Or do you give your dog back to the breeder for a few weeks/months”

Well I’m not sure if the type of breeder that does it does health tests... so...

But yeah they take the bitch back for a while to give birth until the puppies are sold.

@catinboots21 If your friend opts to be a Guardian then the breeder will choose the bitch they want to breed from and will also cover all the medical costs. This is standard practice.

@Mantlemoose

Typical dog breeders. My MIL is one (crufts etc) but it's a business and all her dog friends are the same. They're bred to show, they're not pets and from what I can see bred until they're past their best and then sold on/pets. This is one of many reasons I no longer speak to mil.

Exactly this is why breeders who utilise guardian families are more ethics because the bitches only breed once or twice and live with loving families. I couldn't buy a puppy from a breeder that over breeds and doesn't treat their animals with love.

@Powertothepetal

It's quite common practice No it isn’t...

and allows breeding dogs to live a wonderful life with their forever family and only have one or two litters rather than a bitch kept entirely for breeding until no longer viable
No decent breeder would have a dog ‘entirely for breeding until no longer viable’

What a great way to enjoy a fabulous dog if you can't afford the hefty price tag
No dog is worth ‘the hefty price tag’ currently being charged by some greeders.

I can tell you it is where I live.

There's no such thing as an 'ethical breeder'. They are all exploitative using dogs as a commodity to be bought and sold.

This really stinks and I would think less of my friend for doing it. I'm not sure whether I'd mention it though since it sounds like she's already done it.

“There's no such thing as an 'ethical breeder'. They are all exploitative using dogs as a commodity to be bought and sold.”

Only if you disagree at all with dogs being bred...

For instance the breeder I was in contact with before I adopted my current dog instead breeds and shows a vulnerable native breed - she has 5 bitches, 2 have had 2 litters each and are retired, 2 she has breeding plans for fairly soon and one is too young still to know what she’s doing. She’s bred 5 litters in the last 10 years.

it is a bit of an undertaking
what if she gets pregnant to an unsuitable match?

isnt this the sort of things farmers do with sheep/cows?

I'd rather pay the 3k and have a dog that's mine then pay 1k and go through the stress of having puppies. And the main factor puting the dog through it as it can really change them! My first dog locked with my male dog (he escaped when in season) we was mortied an hes since had the snip but it's changed her personality so much. She was so depressed when they all went, won't go to other people anymore. Like separation anxiety. It's bloody cruel.

She does still see her pups as we gave them to friends but isn't the point. Advise her against as it isn't right !!

I can tell you it is where I live
Where do you live, Carmarthen..?
Ireland?

This is puppy farm greeder territory.
No decent breeder would behave like that.

Like PPs said, decent breeders don’t have three litters a year, or get rid of breeding dogs past their prime or sell puppies on the understanding they will automatically have a litter without knowing the developed temperament of the puppy or if it has developed any health problems, nor do they breed ‘within two years’ because unless it’s a tiny toy breed the dog isn’t properly physically and mentally mature until at least 2.

A few of the comments on here are scary, the one that said ‘it sounds like a more ethical way to breed’, what on earth kind of situations are posters like that buying their puppies from and thinking are normal practice..?

There's no such thing as an 'ethical breeder'. They are all exploitative using dogs as a commodity to be bought and sold

Agreed.

That's horrible, but I have heard it before. People just can't resist the money.

@MrsHaycock, so where do you suggest dogs should come from?

There are three options:
Deliberate breeding, done with varying degrees of concern for the welfare of the dogs. This allows for health testing, the preservation of predictable breed traits and planned crosses or outcrosses. Unfortunately it can also be terrible for canine welfare;
Random breeding, where you let your bitch in heat off-lead in the park and hope for the best. This is the definition of irresponsible, because Tiny Tina the terrier could get shagged by Big Boy the St Bernard and die in labour, or get shagged by her brother who lives across the park. And if this goes on forever, all breed distinction is lost;
No breeding at all and you have to get a rescue from overseas. Until that supply dries up, and also bearing in mind that rescue dogs are not for everyone.

Animal welfare says you can buy and sell dogs so long as you treat them kindly and responsibly. Animal rights says you shouldn't have dogs at all. I go for animal welfare, myself.

It always amazes me when some posters criticise anyone looking for a puppy to buy or anything to do with showing or breeding.
They say “ you shouldn’t even be considering that, you should get a rescue dog. ..always”
If nobody ever bred a puppy, which is what they seem to want, how would they get a rescue? Dogs would become extinct .
Mind you most of the dogs that do end up in rescue tend not to be from breeders with the welfare of the breed as their concern. They mostly insist that any puppy sold must come back to them if the buyer, for some reason, is unable to keep it. You do tend to put buyers through the third degree but you never know what could befall in years to come. I’ve only ever twice had dogs returned, one following a divorce, the other as the owner was killed in an accident & his brother’s family had wanted to keep it but their own two dogs wouldn’t tolerate it. Both of the returnees spent the rest of their lives with me.
So if all the good breeders did as some ask, stop breeding... “ it’s exploitation for money”, believe me when you count up the cost there isn’t much of that( & no, I haven’t been charging thousands as I deliberately haven’t had any puppies during this mad time), I’ll ask again. Where would they get a rescue from. Imports? Puppy farms? People who let their bitch roam the streets to be mated by chance?
Breeds wouldn’t be At Risk, they’d be extinct in this country.

Is the dog she is buying definitely female? Because to be honest reading that I assumed the dog would be male and used as a stud, perhaps for another bitch the breeder has as obviously breeding him with his mum wouldn’t be right at all.

However if the dog is female then that’s awful practice from the breeder and I can’t believe your friend is agreeing!