Dogs worrying sheep

[PinniGig]

Following the rise in numbers of people that have got dogs during the pandemic there has been a spike in the cases of sheep worrying, attacks and dogs being shot by farmers in the UK which I've heard debated, discussed and argued a lot recently.

Including general link for info but anyone not already aware and especially new, novice owners - please take a bit of time and familiarise yourself with the laws and understand the reason, need and laws regarding livestock being worried.

www.rspca.org.uk/-/blog_sheep_worrying

It's really not hard to understand that your dog should be on a lead in the countryside when livestock are around.

I don't care how well trained you think your dog is, unless it's the farmer's dog or you have specific agreement from the farmer for your dog to be off near his animals, you should keep your dog on leash.

Whether your dog is amazing or not is irrelevant. It's the farmer's land and livestock and so you should respect that.

@MsMarvellous

It's really not hard to understand that your dog should be on a lead in the countryside when livestock are around.

I don't care how well trained you think your dog is, unless it's the farmer's dog or you have specific agreement from the farmer for your dog to be off near his animals, you should keep your dog on leash.

Whether your dog is amazing or not is irrelevant. It's the farmer's land and livestock and so you should respect that.

Yes I agree, I have a very well behaved dog who is not remotely interested in sheep. I always put her on the lead if near livestock - better safe than sorry - very simple. I do wonder if it is city folk more responsible, but I tell myself they can't be any less responsible surely! Who are these people who let their dogs run around in the middle of livestock - please enlighten us as to why, if you are!

I've read a lot of posts where people think "Fluffy is just playing - he didn't bite so it's okay"

Sadly, the people who let their dogs worry livestock aren't the type to read threads like this!

“Sadly, the people who let their dogs worry livestock aren't the type to read threads like this!”

Probably not... but it’s also hugely important to point out that dogs don’t need to be attacking or even chasing sheep to be causing a problem... sheep aren’t assessing why a dog is there or where they’re running to, just a loose dog is enough to cause issues.

I'd urge anyone who has the chance to try and stock-train their dog. This isn't so that you can then walk it off-lead wherever you fancy, but in case you enter a field you think is empty (but the gate into the next is open and the sheep are there) or you dog squeezes through a hedge and finds some cattle.

You want your dog to find livestock as boring as possible, so that it will recall away from them quite happily. I spend an inordinate amount of time when dog training having the pup sit next to a fence behind which are sheep (who see lots of dogs and are not stressed by her presence) and then calling her away.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman I'm really struggling with that. Do you have tips? Mine is fine in the garden, (we have sheep next door), but in a 'real life' situation he'll fight to chase the livestock.

He's obviously always on lead except in dog walk specific safe spaces, but I'd like to save my arms a little if nothing else.

Similar problems with off lead dogs harassing horses hacking out. Even if the dog(s) do not physically attack, owners seem oblivious to the dangers to the horse, rider, dog and themselves should their predator start chasing, circling, jumping at etc. a large prey animal. A kick to the head is not going to end well for your dog.

A friend who farms sheep had a couple repeatedly walk their dog on her land with no lead. They were stroppy and challenged it when she told them to keep their dog on a lead, telling her that they only walked it in fields with no sheep (sheep get moved by the shepherd, and sometimes escape into adjacent fields). It is amazing how many people seem to think that letting their dog run free is their right.

What we need is a couple of well-publicised cases where farmers have shot dogs for sheep worrying. The law is on their side and it might make people take notice.

@MsMarvellouss, I'd start at a distance, just to desensitise him to sheep at 100yds or wherever it is that he starts to take notice. If he looks their way, give a tug on the lead and say his name to get his attention back to you. Reward with praise/ treat when he refocuses on you. Reduce the distance slowly over repeated sessions.

It will be time-consuming, and you will have set-backs, but eventually you can start to try him on a long-line - ideally with the shepherd's permission, failing that outside the field when the ewes are NOT in lamb. That willed you start to practice recalling him away from stock.

It's quite possible that he finds the sheep next door dull because he knows he can't get to them, or because they are used to dogs and don't react. I've been proofing my younger dog next to dog-savvy sheep and at some point I'll need to test her out on more skittish ones.

People don't care because their dog 'wouldn't hurt a fly' and is 'only playing'.

A neighbour shot a dog - it had been repeatedly 'playing with' his sheep. On the day, the dog had been there long enough for someone to phone him, him to drive home to get his gun and then drive to the field and shoot it.

The hate, comments, threats and repercussions were horrific - the police support was good - the farmer had done nothing wrong, the dog had repeatedly been allowed to run through the woods for exercise but it had been running the sheep instead.

I'd be surprised if you would find a farmer happy for a case to be 'well publicised' - my neighbour was very upset about it, but it was killing sheep & lambs - the ewes were traumatised for months.

Always keep your dog on a lead.

We’re putting a lot of time into stock training our Lab puppy. Lots of sitting on the other side of fences looking at sheep, treating for calmness, not allowing excitement to escalate into jumping up and barking. Same with horses - sitting well off the path when riders go by, lots of treating and “Watch me”. She’s a bit more excitable round cattle, maybe because the bullocks round here will come to the fence or gate and huff at her, so we’re just concentrating on walking calmly past in those circumstances.
We want to get to the point where livestock is as non-eventful as a car going past.
We will never have her off lead anywhere where livestock may be, though.
It’s almost a point of pride with some dog owners. Yeah, yeah, your dog heels superbly. It won’t mind a slip lead loose over it’s head just in case then, will it? .

It will be time-consuming, and you will have set-backs, but eventually you can start to try him on a long-line - ideally with the shepherd's permission, failing that outside the field when the ewes are NOT in lamb. That willed you start to practice recalling him away from stock

Are you fucking insane?

Do not follow any of this stupid advice - just put your bloody dog on a lead, not a long-line, and keep your dog on the lead. If you have your own dog and your own sheep, do as you like, but NEVER EVER tell people to 'stock-train' in case their dog squeezes through someone else's hedge into someone else's field, or that you might find someone else's sheep in their own bloody field.

KEEP YOUR DOG ON A LEAD and stop being so fucking ridiculous!

'Ideally with the shepherd's permission', IDEALLY???????? FFS

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman can you kindly explain how the hell you would know that a flock of sheep conveniently in a field that you want to traumatise will be 'NOT in lamb'?

Sheep gestation is about 147 days, some of them of them barely look in lamb a week before birth and lambing happens all through the year.

Keep your dog on a lead.

@stupidstupider, I have kept sheep, and I lost one of those sheep to a dog attack, so I do have some idea what I am talking about. I have friends who lost several sheep in a dog attack - I saw the photos on one's phone and they made me feel ill.

So no, I am NOT 'fucking insane', thanks all the same. My experiences are exactly why I want to habituate my dogs to stock and to encourage others to do the same. You can let your dog off-lead on a village playing field, only to find half a dozen ewes are out of the pasture 100 yards away. What then? You thought you'd been a perfect dog owner, and there goes Fluffy, ignoring your yells and calls...

I'm not telling anyone to 'traumatise' sheep, but to keep their dog at a distance where it is still and quiet and only gradually being it closer. Did you note what I said after 'ideally' getting permission? I said, 'failing that, outside the field'.

And yes, I have a local shepherd's permission to be near to his sheep, with my dog on a line, because he knows I'm not actually 'fucking insane', but acting responsibly. He knows I walk my dogs off-lead where it is safe to do so - he's seen me come across an arable field and call my dogs in as I come towards the fence behind which he is trimming feet or whatever.

So please get off your high horse and stop being so rude.

So when you kept sheep and then lost one in a dog attack, how happy would you have been to find loose dogs right next to them? How happy would your friend with multiple attacks would be? Telling people to train dogs with unknown sheep IS fucking insane.

It's even worse that you're advocating to use sheep 'not in lamb' while claiming sheep experience.

Keep your dog on a lead is the only advice to be given.

But it is eminently sensible for people to livestock train their dogs AND keep them on a lead, for all sorts of reasons.
And it's not really possible to properly livestock train a dog without exposing it to livestock, in a controlled scenario - if that makes someone 'fucking insane' then I clearly have lost my grip on language.

Leads break, people let go, dogs pull people over, slip harnesses, slip collars, escape from cars, all sorts of things. Keeping a dog on lead isn't a failsafe option, so backing it up with livestock desensitisation is a good idea.

I would go spare if someone was "stock training" their dog anywhere near my sheep. You do realise that a dog on the other side of the fence can still "worry" sheep, don't you? If your dog doesn't have excellent recall it shouldn't be off the lead. It should be under control at all times. My dog is "stock trained" - she is a working sheep dog, but I would never allow her, off lead near someone else's sheep. It's all about respect.

Oh, I have to make clear my dog is always on a lead when we look at livestock! And it’s always been on the other side of a fence too, except for horses being ridden on shared paths. I want her to walk on a lead at heel past sheep mainly, when she’s old enough for fell walking. Wouldn’t go through a field containing cattle even if it meant a huge detour and horses would be a decision I’d make at the time, depending on how far away they were away from the footpath and what sort of behaviour they were displaying.

I never ever suggested that a dog should be off-lead anywhere near sheep. Nor did I advocate taking a dog so close to sheep that it got excited and disturbed the sheep. If you actually read my posts that is completely clear.

I want my dogs to be as steady as possible around other animals. As @Ihaventgottimeforthis points out, management fails. Your management of your dog. The farmers management of the stock (which is not a criticism, just a fact of life -lambs escape). Or just some arse has cut a fence (we had cows out here recently, because someone cut a fence).

So there you are, out in the village playing fields before work, responsibly exercising your off-lead dog who recalls away from picnics and other dogs and even rabbits. And on the far side of the abutting arable field are sheep in a pasture. A tree came down in last night's wind and took out part of the fence, and a few ewes decide that the grass is greener. And you don't know it, but they're behind that clump of brambles in the corner behind the rugby pitch.

And out they trot, 50' in front of your dog, who is 30' from you.

What's best then? A stock-broken dog who will stop on the whistle, or one who goes into prey drive?

Oh, and I recommended sheep 'not in lamb' because I wouldn't want to so much as disconcert in-lamb ewes.

Because, as I said before, I'm not 'fucking insane'.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

I never ever suggested that a dog should be off-lead anywhere near sheep. Nor did I advocate taking a dog so close to sheep that it got excited and disturbed the sheep. If you actually read my posts that is completely clear.

I want my dogs to be as steady as possible around other animals. As @Ihaventgottimeforthis points out, management fails. Your management of your dog. The farmers management of the stock (which is not a criticism, just a fact of life -lambs escape). Or just some arse has cut a fence (we had cows out here recently, because someone cut a fence).

So there you are, out in the village playing fields before work, responsibly exercising your off-lead dog who recalls away from picnics and other dogs and even rabbits. And on the far side of the abutting arable field are sheep in a pasture. A tree came down in last night's wind and took out part of the fence, and a few ewes decide that the grass is greener. And you don't know it, but they're behind that clump of brambles in the corner behind the rugby pitch.

And out they trot, 50' in front of your dog, who is 30' from you.

What's best then? A stock-broken dog who will stop on the whistle, or one who goes into prey drive?

Oh, and I recommended sheep 'not in lamb' because I wouldn't want to so much as disconcert in-lamb ewes.

Because, as I said before, I'm not 'fucking insane'.

The national sheep association agree with you. They recommend livestock training IN ADDITION to keeping dogs on leads.

www.nationalsheep.org.uk/dog-owners/sheep-worrying/2460/top-tips-training-and-further-help-for-dog-owners/

Can I mention that pheasants whilst being reared in pens are also classed as livestock, and any dog attempting to access or seen worrying a pen can also be shot by a farmer or gamekeeper. Pheasant pens can normally be found near bridleways in small copses and are easily distinguishable as they are chicken wired inclosures. Feeding butt's which look like water butt's dotted around the area will give you an indication as to a pen nearby, pens can also be protected by snares ( friends dog got caught in one as she stupidly let him wander into a copse from the bridleway). As pps have said unless you can keep your dog on the bridleway or footpath and you are 100% on his recall, keep them on a lead .

Ha, it was time for another let's make generalisations about all dogs threads and nothing but the lead is acceptable.

I have a very small but quite fast running dog. We trained him from the time he was 8 weeks old, on a pouch, that approaching sheep was not acceptable. He is brilliant and can walk next to them and not be bothered. If anything, he's scared of them at times as they can be a intimidating when standing on paths.

We passed the farmers regularly as we often walk later in the day when they are out to look after them. Not once have we been told to put our dog on a lead. I expect because of his size and observation that he is not interested.

I am not saying that dogs should be left to run after sheep freely, or course, but let's stop the 'all dogs should be on the lead in the countryside because all dogs are dangerous to wild life' preaching.

By the way, there's also the whole conversation about poo being left behind and killing sheep. It made me smile when the other day, the farmer's dog did a big poo in front of him and he certainly didn't bother to pick it up, just called his dog over and off they went on the tractor!

Agree totally with livestock training. As a young dog my own was never off lead around sheep - and never wil be - but we have some public footpaths going through sheep fields and I would walk him along those while working on keeping his attention on me. Letting him sniff away from me then calling him back etc, Ignoring the sheep so that they blended into the background.

Did similar with horses and cows and am really glad of it. He's a nosey dog by nature, but never very interested in any of those animals when we come across them.

Still wouldn't let him off the lead around them, though.

Ha, it was time for another let's make generalisations about all dogs threads and nothing but the lead is acceptable
It's quite a measured and informative thread, but as ever there's always a few who think their dog is the doggy Messiah who is immune from any doggy dispositions.