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The doghouse

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Original poster

Puppy hurt dd

78 replies

Charliebradbury · 12/05/2021 06:05

We have a 19 week old border collie puppy. He is generally good, the only issue we have is he jumps up at the children and pulls on their clothes. We decided to get a dog trainer in to help us with this. They came round for the first time last night. Now the puppy is normally really good with the children, he has never bitten anybody, he plays with my dd (6) and is gentle, every morning he gets so excited to see her and greets her with face licking and tongue wagging. He will happily just lay across her and sleep.
Yesterday the trainer gave her a bowl of food to hold, puppy saw this and jumped up to get it, the trainer pulled the food away when the puppy had his face in the bowl, he followed the food and caught my dds hand with his teeth in the process. Now she isn't badly hurt or anything just a couple of small scratches and it wasn't a purposeful bite. The trainer then dragged my puppy away by the collar causing it to growl. Later on she asked my daughter to stand and call him to her, the puppy tried to run to her but the trainer had him by a lead so he couldn't get anywhere. He then started to get frustrated and was kind of growling but more in a frustrated way (somewhere between a growl and a whine).
The trainer has now told us we can't have the kids and the puppy together when the puppy has food, that the puppy shouldn't be fed from a bowl and they are concerned about his aggression towards the children.
The thing is he isn't normally at all aggressive, he has never growled before, the kids have hand fed him from the day we got him and he has never bitten them. After they left last night and the puppy had calmed down the first thing he did was go and sit next to my dd and fall asleep.
I suffer terribly from anxiety and have hardly slept all night worrying about what I have done wrong. The trainer went on about how he was aggressive and might need a muzzle but he has never growled or bitten anyone before last night. He loves getting attention from people, he is very excitable whenever he sees people and he is very good with other dogs. In the hour the trainer was there he growled twice, once when she pulled him by the collar and once when our cat came up behind him when she was giving him treats, but when he realised it was the cat he stopped growling and ignored it.
The image they have given is totally the opposite of the reality of day to day with him. I don't know what to do, my dd loves interacting with him and to be told they shouldn't do it really upset her last night. I will point out we never leave them alone at all.

OP posts:
Original poster
Charliebradbury · 12/05/2021 07:17

I grew up with a border collies as my grandparents were sheep farmers. We also wanted a dog that would like a lot of exercise as I walk 4 miles a day normally and we go hiking on weekends.

OP posts:
Moondust001 · 12/05/2021 07:19

Dear God. The trainer is an idiot - ten years experience doesn't make her any good if this is her way of acting. Really, a child of that age shouldn't be handling the dogs food, but the trainer proceeded to taunt the dog with food and involved the child. It was fortunate that it turned out nowhere near as badly as it could have done, no doubt because the dog is young and well socialised around the children. I don't see any sign of aggression, more a random scratch caused by puppy behaviour because he was being taunted by the trainer and s/he was involving your child in that. Pups of that age don't have quite the control over teeth and paws/claws as an older dog who has learned what hurts and how to play with humans.

Sack the trainer.

BertieBotts · 12/05/2021 07:19

You want a trainer who is a member of IMDT as well as being experienced with the breed probably.

MissBPotter · 12/05/2021 07:26

I had similar in a way but with a groomer. My pup was really anxious when he met her and didn’t want to go with her, she just dragged him in to the grooming room really hard. Then he apparently turned round to try to bite her at one point and she informed me that she had to muzzle him and she was worried about my kids being around him. She also tried to say I didn’t take him out enough, even though he goes out at least twice a day. So I got rid of her and got a new groomer who was nice and gentle and friendly and my dog is absolutely fine with him and doesn’t need a muzzle. It is strange how people who don’t actually seem to like dogs get jobs where they work with them all day!! Sounds like your puppy is fine, get a new trainer or just train him yourself.

Frankie4me · 12/05/2021 07:26

The advice not to use a food bowl and instead give him his food in activities eg. Kong, sniffing game etc isn’t necessarily bad advice - it can be fun and engaging for dogs, tire them out a bit. It depends on you and what time you have available. I try to mix it up a bit. The rest of the advice and training is terrible though - get a new trainer ASAP.

Hellcatspangle · 12/05/2021 07:30

The trainer is shit. Get a new one!

Welshcakes03 · 12/05/2021 07:31

@Charliebradbury

I grew up with a border collies as my grandparents were sheep farmers. We also wanted a dog that would like a lot of exercise as I walk 4 miles a day normally and we go hiking on weekends.
I get you. Border Collies are my breed aswell. They arent pups forever it will get better your dog will be your daughters best friend. I just echo what everyone else has said really.
Original poster
Charliebradbury · 12/05/2021 07:33

This morning we have given him some of his food in his Kong and some then in a bowl. My dd has woken up with no voice so she is back in bed, so we will see later how he reacts to her. I will definitely be ignoring a lot of her advice and just continuing with what we were doing. He really is a sweet dog, everyone always compliments him when we are out as he always sits to be stroked. I think it just made me feel so bad as she made me feel like I was letting my kids down allowing the puppy around them. We always seperate when over excited and allow both kids and puppy to calm down and we also let them both play without the other around. In 11 weeks we have had no issues until last night

OP posts:
Chloemol · 12/05/2021 07:54

That trainer is rubbish. Find Newhouse deals with collies

Original poster
Charliebradbury · 12/05/2021 08:18

He growled at her when he first saw her with the food so I got her to give him food through a safety gate and he soon stopped growling at her. And she was able to get food out if the packet and he just sat and waited. So cross that in the space of 24 hrs we have gone backwards

OP posts:
Forestdweller11 · 12/05/2021 08:44

The trainer is shit basically. Facebook group dog training advice and support as mentioned by others. Also as pp poster using snuffle mats/ kongs etc rather than a bowl is fine. We do both with our terrier, so bowl and then also a portion that he gets for doing tricks, being obedient and for relaxing. He's only a baby so will be using up loads of calories anyway so probably little danger of overfeeding. Ref taking the food away - to be honest I'd just put the food down and leave the dog to it. It's probably more likely to resource guard if he thinks there's the possibility of it being taken away (even if immediately replaced). Bit like sitting down to your favourite tea, taking a mouthful and then someone coming and taking it away and replacing it with a banana, then taking that away and bringing back your tea. You'd be like wtaf. We do play swaps/bribe though - so we give a very high value piece of food in return for something being released be it a ball, food, stick or whatever but never during his main meal, always as a game.

minniemomo · 12/05/2021 08:47

Get a new trainer. Border collies are amazing dogs but need specific training. Make sure the trainer is experienced in training collies. We used a tennis ball to train our boy, he couldn't care less about food, you can take it out of his mouth. (We trained through to the gold award)

somethinginthewater · 12/05/2021 08:55

He growled at her when he first saw her with the food - he's not daft!

Original poster
Charliebradbury · 12/05/2021 09:44

@somethinginthewater

He growled at her when he first saw her with the food - he's not daft!
He really isn't. They have since been sat together watching moana so there seems to be no hard feelings.
OP posts:
bookworm1632 · 12/05/2021 10:32

So a lot of nonsense in this thread - it MAY be a poor trainer, but it's obvious what the trainer was trying to do and they weren't wrong.

A dog should never TAKE - it needs to learn it gets what is given, and anything given can be taken back. Otherwise you reverse the relationship and the dog believes IT is the master.

The growling when your dog doesn't get its way is highly concerning and presents a safeguarding issue. You claim there were no previous problems - presumably because you were letting the dog have its way - are you going to let that continue? Then the NEXT time one of the kids upsets the dog it attacks them??

In short, you have a far bigger problem than you admit to OP. Get another trainer in if you want a second opinion, but you need to get a handle on things or risk the safety of your kids.

Original poster
Charliebradbury · 12/05/2021 10:40

We don't let him get his own way. He is trained to wait for his food normally but the trainer had only been in our house 5 minutes by this point and had been feeding the dog treats the entire time. He was very over excited. I'm not saying the growling wasn't concerning but a growl doesn't always equal aggression. She wants us to completely seperate them can I ask how this will teach either of them How to interact? We have taken on board that food may be an issue so we will work on that but before now he has never growled or bitten anyone even when the children have taken toys away from him. He is a puppy and obv his behaviour is not perfect that is why we're proactive in getting a trainer. My dd was sat on the sofa the trainer filled a bowl of food up and carried it and put it on my dd. My dog jumped up. The trainer said nothing to either the dog or my dd, the dog went to stick his head in his bowl and then the trainer pulled it away. She still didn't say anything to the dog until she grabbed him by the collar and pulled him backwards off the sofa.
I am willing to work on food aggression but she literally said that he was aggressive towards the children but she never actually saw him without food involved.

OP posts:
Original poster
Charliebradbury · 12/05/2021 10:44

I have already said I am anxious and I really just need actual helpful advice instead of criticism. He has sat the entire morning with her, he sits when she tells him to and lays down for her. So what would you advice we keep the children seperate and never let them interact and hope it goes away all by itself? I honestly want to know because I can not see how that is helpful. The trainer said if he starts guarding his food he will need to be muzzled and I don't understand how that will help either. I'm just really confused by the advice I have been given

OP posts:
bunnygeek · 12/05/2021 10:57

The whole "alpha"/"master" and need to "dominate" a dog has loooong been debunked. That kind of advice is as dangerous as snatching food away from an excited dog.

@Charliebradbury you sound like you're doing a lot of the right things and this trainer wasn't great.

What made you feel you needed a trainer to begin with?

You could see if there are any Dogs Trust Dog School puppy classes available, they've bene doing a lot of those on Zoom but start face to face again from the 17th May. They will have nice positive advice. www.dogstrust.org.uk/help-advice/dog-school

bunnygeek · 12/05/2021 11:03

Ah! I just went back to the original post - it was the jumping.

As others have said, totally normal puppy behaviour and turning your back or stepping away until all four paws are on the floor is the best way of dealing. There's a good video here:
www.dogstrust.org.uk/help-advice/training/jumping-up-training

Blacktothepink · 12/05/2021 11:08

I would say get a trainer who specialises in that breed.

Original poster
Charliebradbury · 12/05/2021 11:09

I got adviced that we needed one cause he was so jumpy. This morning we have gone from him allowing her to hand feed him to him growling if she touches his food but is fine with me, dh and ds touching his food. I took his Kong away earlier and he was fine with it. When no food involved he is totally fine with her, even though he knows I have treats in my pocket. I now need to work out how to get him more comfortable around her and food again but right now I'm happy with her doing training without treats, he will still sit etc for her. She is doing really well even after last night. We wanted help with one thing and have been left with more issues. I just feel bad cause my dd loves him so much. She is really gentle and kind with him so I think it feels much worse as he always goes straight to her when we come home and it feels kind of a betrayal that he now associates her with having food taken away

OP posts:
bookworm1632 · 12/05/2021 11:31

[quote bunnygeek]The whole "alpha"/"master" and need to "dominate" a dog has loooong been debunked. That kind of advice is as dangerous as snatching food away from an excited dog.

@Charliebradbury you sound like you're doing a lot of the right things and this trainer wasn't great.

What made you feel you needed a trainer to begin with?

You could see if there are any Dogs Trust Dog School puppy classes available, they've bene doing a lot of those on Zoom but start face to face again from the 17th May. They will have nice positive advice. www.dogstrust.org.uk/help-advice/dog-school[/quote]
The whole "alpha"/"master" and need to "dominate" a dog has loooong been debunked.

Err no - you are totally confusing dominating a dog - i.e. controlling it with fear, with simply controlling a dog. A dog needs to learn (the younger the better) that its food and toys belong to its owner. Otherwise you have issues like this - imagine if this kind of scenario was left and one day a young child picks up the dog's favourite toy.......

Side note - the OP's original problem - it also needs to learn that attention CANNOT be DEMANDED. i.e. jumping up at people results in a lack of attention, NOT it getting its own way.

OP - I'm not trying to worry you - and I'm certainly not suggesting that the dog and kids should be kept separate all the time. I'm DEFINITELY advising you to get another trainer in as you no longer have confidence in the one you hired (get a recommendation). I don't see an immediate problem here, but it's certainly one that could develop into a much bigger issue if left.

Original poster
Charliebradbury · 12/05/2021 11:37

We have been trying to ignore him when he jumps up and it has worked with us more than the children which is why we got the trainer in the first place. We went from a dog who was a bit jumpy to one who now growls at my daughter. If I keep them separate when food is involved will that help for the moment? I honestly don't know what to do anymore. We feed him in the kitchen normally anyway away from us all but my main worry is that she can no longer give him treats something she has been doing from day one. If I give him the treats and she just stands next to me will that work for now? The trainer gave us no idea how to stop the behaviour other than keep them separate. Should we leave it a few days and try again with treats?

OP posts:
DiddlyWiddly · 12/05/2021 12:11

Gosh, if ever there was evidence for the importance of strong regulation within the dog training/behavioural field this would be it.

I’m so sorry this has happened to you OP, the ‘trainer’ doesn’t have a clue.

If he is still okay with treats id continue to let your DD feed him treats but id not let her near his bowl anymore.

LEMtheoriginal · 12/05/2021 12:45

Quite frankly i would be sacking the trainer amd asking for a refund.