Flea and worm treatment - Natural?

[welshdaisy]

Hey guys I'm just looking for a bit of advice really. My dog is administered advocate monthly and droncit 3 monthly. I was thinking about taking a more natural route when it comes to administering treatments. I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were, and if anyone does use any natural treatments for recommendation? I notice my dog shakes when he knows I'm going to administer and then he's really unhappy and quiet afterward. His ears will droop too. I spoke to the vet and she wasn't too concerned with that behaviour. Any advice appreciated. I only want what's best for him

@Roonerspismed

I use various herbal products

The safety of most commercial treatments is not good

There might be less chance of side effects with a herbal treatment; in a lot of cases they’re not having much effect on the worms either...

Not sure about that - years of owning dogs - no worms!

@Roonerspismed

Not sure about that - years of owning dogs - no worms!

A product you get from a vet has been extensively tested in a clinical trial to show how effective it is, and also to find out how to use it safely.

The same cannot be said for herbal products because they will be marketed as a ‘supplement’ - the testing is a lot less stringent.

Just because your dogs did not have clinically evident worm infestations while using a herbal remedy doesn’t mean that approach is going to work for all dogs. Yours might have a lifestyle where they aren’t exposed to worms, they might be genetically resistant, they might just have a few worms and cope fine (dogs did evolve with them, after all). An anecdote is not really evidence.

People with kids might not want their dog shedding potentially zoonotic worms; they might not want to take the risk of lungworm; their puppy might have raging diarrhoea and weight loss because of worms.

NOt ancedotal though I have had dogs for too many years to admit too Only one dog ever had worms and that was a tapeworm. Picked up in testing and was treated immediately.

All those years of testing on all those dogs, the enviromental impact of wormers, the need to increase the strength of wormers as worm are getting resitant to the chemicals. We need as to look for other methods for dealing with this in another way from medication.

Fun fact: the lungworm larvae have already travelled from the dog’s gut to its blood vessels, matured there, laid some eggs which have hatched, baby lungworms then worked their way through the lungs and other tissues causing lots of damage (including coughing, pneumonia, bleeding tendencies, seizures etc etc) as they go, been coughed up and swallowed - before you reliably see larvae in the faeces.

It is the adult worms that cause the issue so if your worm count as often as you worm there is no difference in the protection your dog is getting. The life cycle is 28 days.

Sorry the non ancedotal comment was meant to be backed up by science there has been a study on the frequency of lungworms in the uk - it is still pretty uncommon

Thanks for all the info guys it's really helpful. I only want to do what's best for my dog really

calmest you mean the trials conducted that showed a risk of neurological harm in those dogs but that vets themselves decide the risks are lower?

Or the anecdotal stories instead about dogs dying from these products and vets not reporting them as they are “coincidental”?

Or the more natural products which don’t receive the same funding therefore don’t have the benefits of the first trials?

I know which I will take thanks. Anyone wonder why so many dogs are aging quicker, developing arthritis (medicated from an earlier age), allergies, auto immunities and cancers? I don’t know either but I can bet that increased use - and largely unnecessary use of these products is one factor alongside crappy vet endorsed kibble and annual vaccinations.

@Roonerspismed

calmest you mean the trials conducted that showed a risk of neurological harm in those dogs but that vets themselves decide the risks are lower?

Or the anecdotal stories instead about dogs dying from these products and vets not reporting them as they are “coincidental”?

Or the more natural products which don’t receive the same funding therefore don’t have the benefits of the first trials?

I know which I will take thanks. Anyone wonder why so many dogs are aging quicker, developing arthritis (medicated from an earlier age), allergies, auto immunities and cancers? I don’t know either but I can bet that increased use - and largely unnecessary use of these products is one factor alongside crappy vet endorsed kibble and annual vaccinations.

Oh please do explain how de-wormers, vaccines and food cause osteoarthritis?

It definitely won't be anything to do with obesity, poor breeding choices, increased longevity or improved veterinary diagnostics...

@Veterinari hey! Are you a vet? I only ask as the clue is in the name lol... do you think a more gentle approach could work? I'm genuinely curious is all.. he's still got advocate in his system so not started any other treatment yet, but any advice would be appreciated

I suppose it depends where you live and where you walk your dog. Last year was rife with ticks the worst I have ever known it to be. I brushed 18 ticks off one of my dogs on on one walk alone. I walk my dogs in tick areas its where I live you can't avoid them they
. If I trusted natural products I would use them. If you maybe live in a town where your at less tick risk for example you could use a natural repellant and get away with it. In areas where ticks are prevelant during certain times a year you need something guaranteed to work. I always remember a poor bloke from out the area with no tick treatment on his dog. His dog was covered in them they were all over his dogs back. He did not know how to remove them either. Some people may get away with natural products but they don't work for everyone.

Inflammation. Multifactorial. Shitty foods inflame the human body and I would doubt a dog’s body is different. Add in some neurological toxicity and repeated vaccines and bingo.

Autoimmunity and inflamed joints and goodness knows what else

I haven’t always been this way. I used to true vets. Then I read some of the trials and the funding and vet practices. There are some amazing vets out there but you have to hunt

Re ticks - I use a variety of essential oils and pull the odd tick they get.

@welshdaisy - your choice needs to be based on science. The problem with 'natural' alternatives is they give a false sense of security.

PollyRoulson's approach of using anti-parasite treatment based on need, makes sense and has potential benefit both to your dog and the environment. The drawback is the risk of the dog occasionally picking up a parasite.

Leaving lungworm aside, if you were to stop using the monthly Advocate, you could keep an eye on the worm situation using the worm count and also promptly pick up dog poo to reduce any human health risk. In terms of fleas, you could learn how to use a flea or nit comb to regularly check for evidence of fleas - you are looking for 'flea dirt' as well as actual fleas. If seen, you would restart treatment.

Some people opt to flea treat for at risk periods eg summer months. If your dog does not like the spot-on treatment then there are tablet options and also the Seresto collar which is not POM any more, so can be bought online etc as well as from the vet. Seresto collar gives 6/7 months of flea protection so long as the dog doesn't swim regularly. If you put one on next month it would last through the summer months and into autumn.

Your dog's parasite risk depends a lot on lifestyle factors:- does he live with cats? does he go to doggy day care? walk in the hills? etc. A one size fits all approach doesn't take any of this into account.

@Roonerspismed - Lots of vet practices sell 'pet health care' type plans for flea/worm treatment and vaccinations. I dislike these, but they are surprisingly popular with clients. There are many vets who care about the potential environmental impact of anti-parasite treatments etc. I have yet to meet one who doesn't care about animal welfare.

That’s interesting land

I was horrified to learn of the chemicals getting into rivers from these dog treatments and I wondered why there wasn’t more of an outcry generally and a protest from vets

To be fair to Joe Public, they probably think they can trust their vet to explain this/do the right thing

It's potentially very scary, especially when you consider that a fair proportion of these treatments are unnecessary ie overuse. The point I want to make is it is not just vets, there is a whole industry behind promoting and selling these drugs of which vets are just a part.

Sorry I dont want to keep going on about this like a dog with a bone but there is no risk to using regular wormcounts due to the life cycle of the worms. This is in reposonse to LandofGiants comment.

PollyRoulson's approach of using anti-parasite treatment based on need, makes sense and has potential benefit both to your dog and the environment. The drawback is the risk of the dog occasionally picking up a parasite.

You will not pick up any worms if you worm count as frequently as you worm there is no drawback. Advantages not giving chemicals when not needed and when they are needed given specific treatment for the worms that are present. Advantages to the environment and the prevention of chemical intolerance to parasites.

Nexguard Spectra which is treatment for lungworm give a 94% reduction of adult lungworm (figures from their data) so may reduce the burden in the dog but your dog could still have lungworm.

Nexguard themselves state that keeps lungworm under control and not eradicate lungworm.

I would argue you would get more protection from wormcounts.

Just for the record I am not anti vaccinations or treatment far from it and would never ever risk the health of my dogs. But over the years seeing the increase in medication needed for my livestock and the dogs and the environmental impact on unnecessary medication we need to look for sensible alternatives.

I am not evern trying to encourage anyone to use wormcounts but just want the correct information out there for people to make an informed choice.

@PollyRoulson - I'm pretty sure we agree on this subject, sorry if my wording was unclear. I was thinking more of the dog picking up the odd tick or flea but this of course can happen even with prophylactic anti-parasite treatment.

I'm a vet with an environmental conscience, but not a practice owner. When I qualified 20ish years ago, the standard advice was to worm your adult dog every 6 months. Then it was every 3 months. Now it seems to be moving to monthly and yet I've seen very few adult dogs with worm related problems so it makes no sense to me.

With my own dog I don't currently use flea treatments, and I worm occasionally. Ddog is vaccinated but boosters tend to be on the late side. Re: lungworm - I'm lucky to live in a non-endemic area, but my practice still sells Nexguard!

land you sound like a very enlightened vet!

To be fair I like a few of the vets around me just now.

Can I ask what you think of Lepto 4?

@landofgiants your comments are really helpful and informative. It's nice to see a different perspective from a vet. (Not that other vets are wrong, but they all seem to sing from the same sheet iyswim)

We do Seresto collars and panacur granules.

No worries with drops (and the cats licking it off for them....)

Same for cats too.

This document has some useful guidance.

https://www.esccap.org/uploads/docs/qjyqgckk07788ESCCAPGuidelineeGL1v122_1p.pdf

As already stated faecal parasite screening is a reasonable alternative to deworming in lower risk dogs.
I think the deworming argument is interesting. It's about the balance between environmental/popoulation impacts in parasite control and the and the public risk factors of diseases like ocular larva migrans in children.

I'm old enough to remember the public health campaigns of the 80s around reducing larva migrans risks and I think it's a challenge because whilst now very rare in the UK, it's consequences are severe, and it is very much a risk in countries where routine deworming doesn't occur.

I think regardless of your view the important thing is that it's evidence-informed. Making spurious claims about 'toxins' in vaccines causing osteoarthritis is frankly woo, with no basis in evidence or pathophysiology.

The 'lepto4 killed my dog' claims are similar. My practice has been using it for vaccination for about 3 years now (live in an area with lots of canals/waterways) We've never seen an adverse event and that's thousands of vaccines given. That's not to say that they don't exist - at the end of the day it's a drug and will have some side effects and it does have a slightly higher risk of adverse effects than L2 (0.069% bs 0.015%) but it also confers greater protection so it's about weighing up that cost:benefit as with any medication

No vet practice seems to ever have encountered the vaccine-deaths that the FB groups are full of so I remain cynical as to why, if these deaths are really occurring, owners aren't reporting them anywhere except FB groups

www.gov.uk/government/news/leptospira-vaccination-in-dogs

Inflammation. Multifactorial. Shitty foods inflame the human body and I would doubt a dog’s body is different. Add in some neurological toxicity and repeated vaccines and bingo.

Autoimmunity and inflamed joints and goodness knows what else

I mean this is just a string of unrelated words. It doesn't remotely describe the pathophysiology of osteoarthritis (not an immune disorder and the most common form of arthritis in dogs), it conflates two quite different disease processes with similar names, assumes they are the same, and adds in some unfounded and meaningless pseudo-science about 'toxins' (meaningless concept) and inflammation.

It doesn't actually explain anything

My previous Labrador (1991-2005) was wormed once a year. The current one (2005-) is wormed twice a year with Drontal Plus and wears a cheap Johnson's flea and tick collar from April to September. He is at very low risk of lungworm. The young spaniel has three doses of Milpro a year spread through the warmer months and a Seresto collar April till November.

What I have noticed over the last thirty years is not only the frequency of worming increasing dramatically but the cost. Drontal Plus costs a few pounds a couple of times a year but the Milpro is very expensive and supposed to be monthly. I took my vet's advice (he's the practice owner) and only give Milpro a maximum of three times.

What do you want me to say vet. I have no idea why dogs are sicker - in the same way humans are. But increasingly inflammation is being blamed for many western diseases and I include in that autoimmunity.

Yes osteoarthritis is “wear and tear” but that isn’t the whole picture surely in humans or dogs. Why is one dog on painkillers from
age 8 and another is sprightly at 12? Genetics yes but I would assume inflammation generally will affect joints too, whether they are inflamed due to autoimmunity or otherwise

The research isn’t done. But when I look at individual studies on various pet treatment products I don’t like what I see. Why would I apply a treatment like that for a dog that doesn’t and never has had fleas?!

@Roonerspismed

What do you want me to say vet. I have no idea why dogs are sicker - in the same way humans are. But increasingly inflammation is being blamed for many western diseases and I include in that autoimmunity.

Yes osteoarthritis is “wear and tear” but that isn’t the whole picture surely in humans or dogs. Why is one dog on painkillers from
age 8 and another is sprightly at 12? Genetics yes but I would assume inflammation generally will affect joints too, whether they are inflamed due to autoimmunity or otherwise

The research isn’t done. But when I look at individual studies on various pet treatment products I don’t like what I see. Why would I apply a treatment like that for a dog that doesn’t and never has had fleas?!

I have no idea why dogs are sicker

You don't even know that they are. You've just made an assumption out of nowhere,

You're just on this thread throwing random words around and scaremongering some unfounded anti-vax, anti-science agenda that's totally irrelevant to the OP's question.

Its weird