Any breeders around? KC registration query

[MyFairKitten]

I am buying a puppy soon. I want my puppy to be KC registered as it's a pedigree breed. Breeder told me that both parents are KC registered (I've checked the names he gave, they are) and therefore that puppy can be KC registered too. He said it takes ages (months) at the moment for paperwork to arrive (ie indicating without saying so that registration documents would not be back in time to go home with the puppy at collection) but still, so far so good. Except we are now drawing closer to collection date and I don't think he has registered the litter yet. Which means that on collection I wouldn't have the KC papers and only his word to take for it that he's even applied. I feel that puts me on the back foot somewhat, especially if for some reason he is never planning to register that litter. I don't understand why he wouldn't have done it sooner if he was going to and if one of his puppy buyers had indicated they wanted it to be KC registered early on. He made it sound like it's something that happens further down the line but I have since read up on it and now I know you can register puppies when they are very young.

If I were to ask him to register the puppy for with KC online prior to collection, would he at least receive an online registration confirmation to show me at collection to prove that he has started the registration process? Should I find this acceptable? Or should I be a bit suspicious that despite talking about registration he's not yet done so?

Thanks in advance.

Re how many dogs - no, it didn't ring alarm bells as theft of dogs is in the news quite a lot these days. I thought they were just being sensibly cautious as they didn't know me from anyone at that stage.

no, it didn't ring alarm bells as theft of dogs is in the news quite a lot these days. I thought they were just being sensibly cautious as they didn't know me from anyone at that stage
My immediate thought was, and is, that they are a commercial breeder with many outdoor kennels of dogs.
The fact they are show breeders and have supplied dogs to other breeders makes me suspect that even more.

I would want to be buying from a small scale ‘hobby’ breeder myself, a few dogs living in the home with only occasional litters.

Thank you everyone for all the advice, it's very useful. I am far better equipped now to see what I need to look into more closely.

I've had a litter recently, I was late registering them due to unforeseen circumstances but the buyers where fine about it and they are waiting for their documents as the KC said it can take up to five weeks.

I'd get him to screen shot the registration application etc

Our have gone to their new homes without their documentation which will be sent to them as soon as we receive them. They don't know the accepted kennel name other than my kennel name as the first part

But saying that it's likely there are more dubious people out there than honest ones like me in the dog breeding world so you are right to be cautious but just do a bit of digging

BigWolf but wouldn't show breeders want to buy each others' puppies from time to time to keep the breed line gene pool fresh? (I don't know how it works).

When are the puppies due to be ready?

FATE In two weeks time.

but wouldn't show breeders want to buy each others' puppies from time to time to keep the breed line gene pool fresh? (I don't know how it works)
I’m preface this by saying I don’t agree with the Kennel club and everything they stand for so I’m perhaps not the best person to ask but here goes...

Yes, breeders do buy other breeders dogs.
But this isn’t always a good thing.

The Kennel Club breed standards mean breeders strive to create dogs with a very set and specific ‘look’.

This invites inbreeding as when a breeder gets a particularly good dog that fits closely with the standards and wins lots of medals not only do they tend to use that dog for breeding for themselves but other breeders want the genetics of that dog in their breeding lines too in the hope they will breed the next winner so the dog is either put to stud where it can father many hundreds of litters in some cases or the other breeders buy puppies of that top winning bitch to breed themselves.

Also, close inbreeding can ‘fix’ particularly desirable (and undesirable) traits into the line.
I’ve often seen ‘close line bred’ pedigree show dog litters advertised.

In a lot of breeds, the rate of inbreeding is often quite high, imo, because of ‘line breeding’ and because of using one top winning show dog to stud and father hundreds of puppies and because of the tendency of breeders to buy new dogs from kennels that have proven very successful in the ring.

Often, if you look at the pedigrees of show dogs from a successful show kennels, you often find the same few kennel names in the pedigrees.

The one good thing about Kennel Club registration is you can use it to check whether the parents of your puppy were related (you want as low an inbreeding rate as possible) but as far as I am concerned that is where the benefits of the Kennel Club end.

They are no guarantee of a good breeder. No guarantee at all.

A ‘top show winning kennel’ for me, would be a disadvantage, not an advantage.
Because I would assume a show kennel will have a large volume of dogs, I wouldn’t be surprised if their puppies had high COI and I would worry that a show kennel may be prioritising a show winning ‘look’ over good health song temperament

Oh, I’m hearing alarm bells all over this.
I show & breed, have done for over 40 years, a rare breed very near, some years at, the very top of the At Risk Native British Breeds list.
He hasn’t given you his address? You haven’t been to see the puppies? Still possible to manage under social distancing. Not even seen a zoom of them or which puppy you’re having? How old are they now? Have they been vet checked? Ask him which vet, ring the vet.
You say you’ve read about him online & breed forums etc. Accuse me of being paranoid but are you sure that the “ breeder” you’re in touch with us actually the same person? It would be easy for some unscrupulous person to look at the same online information & advertise puppies ( real or imaginary) by pretending to be a well known breeder.
For goodness sake, don’t part with any money till you’ve actually been to his house & seen the puppy.

@Darklane

Oh, I’m hearing alarm bells all over this. I show & breed, have done for over 40 years, a rare breed very near, some years at, the very top of the At Risk Native British Breeds list. He hasn’t given you his address? You haven’t been to see the puppies? Still possible to manage under social distancing. Not even seen a zoom of them or which puppy you’re having? How old are they now? Have they been vet checked? Ask him which vet, ring the vet. You say you’ve read about him online & breed forums etc. Accuse me of being paranoid but are you sure that the “ breeder” you’re in touch with us actually the same person? It would be easy for some unscrupulous person to look at the same online information & advertise puppies ( real or imaginary) by pretending to be a well known breeder. For goodness sake, don’t part with any money till you’ve actually been to his house & seen the puppy.

Very true ^^

You should never buy a puppy without seeing the pup with the dam. He could take up into garden for you to see. Occasionally a breeder does not register a litter with KC. That maybe because dam had only 2 or 3 pups or dam had already had a litter that year. You should ring and tell breeder you want to see pup with its dam and will collect on a separate occasion once KC registration has occured. Sorry but this sounds dodgy.

If a breeder is breeding the same bitch so often she has two litters in one year then run.
2-3 pups doesn’t mean they shouldn’t register. Really dodgy.

Hi. So our breeder shows, I looked up her kennel page and there were pics of mum, dad, granparents a history of the kennel, awards, etc. She sent twice weekly Whatsapp videos and pics to us all. Puppies were born in her bedroom. Videos showed pups in pen in kitchen with all sorts of noise, tv, washing machine. Pics and videos of mum with pups and them feeding. Video of pups firsttime outside.

Two weeks before we were sent a video and from that picked our pup. Week before we sent details for microchip, kc reg, etc. We never paid a deposit. She arrived with a pack of papers and her full pedigree certificate going back five generations (I had already researched this because I am a geek).

There is a kennel that shows the same breed based abroad. My pup has some of that in her lineage. They are lovely dogs, win loads and the owner is very nice. But it was very obvious in speaking to them that they run a kennels - the dogs live in kennels - get excellent treatment and run round her garden but the breeding is a money making business for them to a degree. It's not a puppy farm by any stretch but there are likely more than a litter a year. Lots of show breeders do buy a pup from them to increase lineage but she does sell to the pet market. Perhaps this is like the set up you are buying from.

Thank you all for your great advice and help. I am getting a bit more info together and looking into it.

Another question: Aside from the KC registration, what do "pedigree papers" look like? I understand that they are completely separate to KC reg, but I don't know the form pedigree papers take. Is it just a print-out that the breeder makes themselves or are they more official than that?

Also, if anyone can shed light on what should be on a standard puppy contract that would be really useful as I'm thinking of asking him to send me a plain copy in advance so I can see what it includes for. (I know there's many versions online, and some go into a checklist of socialisation experienced etc, but what are the most important basics? Price, addresses, signatures, returns/refund process, but what else is essential to be on there? Thank you.

I've just looked it up online so I can see what it should look like and the important basics of a contract, so I've answered my own question (should have done that first really)

A pedigree certificate looks like this, some give five generations, some four & leave off the last row. The breeder fills it in themselves by hand usually. You can get a printed copy from the Kennel Club if you pay.

Thank you Darklane.

The papers I got with my KC Cocker Spaniel when she came from the breeder were:

• Copy of both parents KC Reg 5 generation pedigree certificate
• Copy of all health checks done on both parents

(I received both these upon first putting down deposit)

• 4 weeks free pet insurance which comes with all new puppies registered on the KC Website
• Paperwork which accompanied the microchip
• Paperwork from vets checks
• Screen shots of online KC Registation, which breeder logged into live as I was there (no physical paperwork was avaliable when picking up, but I could see my Puppys KC name and registration details). You then change the ownership on the KC Website and get the official pedigrees.
• Info sheet from breeder including which foods the puppy had tried and basic instructions for looking after puppy.

Thank you FATE that's really helpful.