Breeders

[Pupster21]

Hi, we’ve been looking for a puppy for a while now and have found a breeder who has agreed to us going on their waiting list. I’d contacted lots of breeders and hadn’t been happy with either their information or the fact they’d hiked their prices up.
The breeder we’ve found is really supportive, lifelong support, can tell they genuinely care, I’ve been in touch with people who’ve had dogs from them spanning the last 10 years and all positive. The only thing that’s making me question the breeders is that they’re very commercial, 10 litters a year from different bitches. All bitches stay with the family (it’s a large family business so couple, their grown up children, her sister, her parents) after finishing breeding and are very much part of the family. All raised in the home, well socialised etc. Would this put you off or would you see it as a very experience breeder? I’ve seen the breeders feature as experts in books on the breed.

It’s so hard right now to find a good breeder and I’m over questioning everything. Should add we’ve tried for a rescue and aren’t deemed suitable due to ages of children and other pets in the home.

Hmm, I'm sure most people will say no way, commercial breeders v. v. bad, puppy farms etc etc. - I'd say it's maybe just about OK, possibly - 10 litters a year is a lot to be fair, on the very edge of manageable in terms of socializing and rearing the puppies properly even if it's their full time job, our breeder would be semi-commercial and she has 2 or 3 a year and even then she seems to have her hands very very full! Plus, does she really keep all her breeding bitches? If she's sticking to the recommended no more than 3 litters total and one litter per year per bitch but has 10 litters a year, and she's experienced so has been doing this for 5 years or more, she must have 25 or more retired and active bitches by now, surely that's way more dogs than she can possibly look after in a home environment even before you add in 3 or 4 litters of puppies at once? Unless when you say it's a family business, it's actually 3 or 4 separate households that all breed from their own houses, and then they advertise/manage the business collectively which is much better IMO...

If you are really convinced of her honesty (e.g. she isn't tricking you with puppy farm tricks into thinking the pups are home reared when actually they're kennel bred), all the health tests of both parents are in order and you've got legitimate reviews/testimonies of other happy customers who have had healthy, well socialised pups from her, for me it might just about be OK?

Thanks for your response. Yes sorry I didn’t explain it very well. Main breeding couple have 9 bitches living with them currently, only 3 of those are of breeding age currently, 4 retired and 1 a pup. Some of the retired bitches have gone to live with another of her children as they left home but they definitely stay in the family. There was a pup born with a deformity last year and the breeders have kept her as she will have ongoing medical needs but obviously won’t be bred from. They only each have 3 litters. Her sister has 6 bitches, 4 of these of breeding age and they live with the sister but are sold under the breeders name but sister is also a registered breeder with council. Breeders son has 2 bitches again only 1 of breeding age and parents have some also. I’ve seen some of the litters born and have been following for 6 months updates as to when bitches are coming into season, then when they are pregnant and twice weekly photos as they grow until they go home.
I’ve seen health tests and DNA tests also.

I think for me it’s the commercial breeding that doesn’t sit well but then I can see how well cared for the bitches and pups are. It’s just so hard at the moment finding a decent breeder. I found one before Covid who was going to have breed summer 2020, she was happy for us to go on that list at £1400 then rang and said due to demand she was charging £3000 so we pulled out because that didn’t sit right.

I'd be wary - based purely on the numbers.

10 litters a year, 8-10 weeks per litter means more than 1 litter at a time. Bitches don't come into season to order, so the reality is likely to mean there are occasions when there are 3 or more litters overlapping.

How are ALL those puppies getting the right level of care, attention and training/socilisation? That sounds like more than can be done (well).

Plus, unless my maths is very dodgy, to get 10 x litters a year from bitches that 'only' have 1 litter per year, 3/4 litters total and live to 10 years old, you'd eventually have at least 30 dogs over a sustained period - leaving enough space for some to be too young and others to be too old - iyswim. No one is adequately caring for 30 adult dogs AND 2-3 litters of puppies, no matter how large their family is.

Have I missed something?

The hike of price is something I am, personally, a bit more comfortable with. Mainly because I can see how it would be impossible for a good breeder to keep to the lower price without risking someone just taking a puppy to resell/make profit from it? So they would have to charge going rate to try and guard against that.

I get what you mean about the commercial aspect, but I also have a slightly different take on it because I come from the horse world. There it is generally accepted that breeding and rearing young horses is a skilled and experienced job usually best left to professionals and that you should expect to pay a fair price for that which may, indeed should, include an element of profit for the breeder - if all breeders could/should only sell the cover their costs then very very few people would ever do it and all you'd be left with were the very high end performance/sports animals and totally indiscriminate backyard or amateur breeders which would be damaging to the breed as a whole. Obviously that's a different context to dogs but unless you are morally opposed to animals ever being used for profit (in which case rescue would be your only option, and the logical conclusion would be that the majority of people should not have a pet of any kind at all) then I think it's OK for someone to make a moderate living breeding dogs providing they do it responsibly - not sacrificing either the animals' welfare or fobbing their customers off with sick or badly bred dogs for the sake of profit which of course is not OK but is a separate thing to how much money they are making... I know we feel sentimental about dogs and don't like thinking of them as a "product", but rearing animals is a hard job that takes skill to do well, why should a breeder not be rewarded for doing so?

@BigHairyPaws I think they’ve started breeding from more bitches over the last 2 years due to demand hence why there aren’t more retired bitches. I know that the last 2 bitches had their litters 2 weeks apart but one was owned by the breeder and one by her Mum so they were in different households.

It just feels so hard to get it right. I’ve been in touch with the breed club who’ve said don’t pay more than £2.5k as this is encouraging backyard breeders yet most reputable breeders are charging more than this. I think I’ll have another ring around and try to speak to more breeders. It doesn’t really sit right how commercialised the breeder I’ve found is, although I don’t doubt their puppies are in good health, well cared for and the support is there afterwards.

Who brings up the puppies? Are they all brought up in one place, by one person?

I'm not averse to the idea of a breeder turning a profit (because if they don't, they risk making a sizeable loss if the bitch needs a section and there are only a couple of puppies - and as maxelly said, you'd be left with the two extremes otherwise) - provided the dogs' needs are met. Dogs are highly social with humans and many of them really crave human companionship (I have two on the sofa next to me now who could be just as warm and comfy on a bed next to a radiator in the other room), and puppies need a lot of habituation to humans and other stimuli, and so my biggest concern in this scenario would be that the adult dogs weren't getting enough input from people, and that the puppies weren't either.

Another concern would be potential for a few studs and a couple of dozen closely related bitches (daughters, cousins etc) to be producing a large % of a breed's puppies - not great for the gene pool.

That's a ridiculously high number of litter per year, esp given the number of bitches.

Breeders who 'don't hike their prices up' risk their pups being resold for the higher value everybody else is selling. It's be stupid not to raise their prices.

I do think it’s too many litters in a year but it’s 10 litters across 4 households so unlikely to overlap. They’ve increased their prices but only by £600 in the last year, not £2000 like other breeders.

This is a really interesting question as one of the breeders that was recommended to me is also a commercial enterprise albeit I think they have 3-4 litters a year. Also I can see from their FB page the puppies are in kennels rather than in the home which really put me off. But they come very highly recommended, people wax lyrical about their dogs' temperaments, go back for second and third dogs... I'm some way off actually getting a dog but not really sure whether to rule them out or not.

Personally I would avoid someone who has bred ten litters in a year and is doing it commercially.

@undermycatsthumb it’s so hard isn’t it. People go back to this breeder for dogs and the temperament is said to be very good. I know the puppies from the breeder I found are all raised in the family home, I’ve seen videos and photos of the puppies with Mum in their pen, with the breeders children and as they get bigger running around the kitchen and garden playing. They follow an online socialisation programme too that owners then can carry on at home. They get them used to the car, get them used to a crate of new owners are using them and everything seems positive except for how commercialised it is with the number of litters. But then I think is 10 litters across 4 households/breeders but under the main breeders umberella company that bad? I’ve just seen some puppies for sale from another reputable breeder for sale at a reasonable price but they’re ready too soon.
I completely understand that breeders should be increasing prices to avoid selling on but it does irk me that prices have increased by up to £3000 with Covid. We were all set to pay £1400 pre Covid so I don’t want to pay £4500 because of demand.

I've got a litter of pups at the moment and it's been 6 weeks of pretty much 24/7 attention, what with feeding, grooming, nail clipping, cleaning (7 pups produce a lot of waste) not to mention the playing and socialisation of the pups. This also doesn't include ensuring mum and my other bitch still have their needs meet, with walks and attention etc.

I can't see how anyone producing that number of pups per year can provide the same "level of service" to both the pups and the adult dogs. And to be clear, I'm fairly pragmatic about dog ownership so don't have unrealistic expectations. You mentioned the pups are in pens, so not actually being raised in a home environment and getting used to all the hustle and bustle of a household. That could make for a difficult pup.

Also, the fact that they've gotten around the council registration issue by farming the dogs out to various family members and basically lying about who the breeder is, doesn't sit right with me either. Fine, if it's your business then run it as a business with the correct certifications etc, rather than this shady set up.

Take all of the above into consideration and add in the sudden increase of costs and I think I'd be steering well clear.

I think if they are being raised in the family home then I'd feel more confident about it. I can understand why the whole family might want to run a business together (it's not hard to see why if you grow up with parents that breed dogs then you end up doing it yourself...) Any chance you can go and visit them once restrictions ease a bit? It might help to see it all in person and the kind of vibe you get.

I should add though that I'm a total dog novice so probably not the best person to take advice from.

@MisfitNotMissFit thank you. It’s really good to get a breeders perspective as I don’t know what is good practice. By pens I mean the whelping pen when very small, I think they’re out of the pen by about 6 weeks. The other breeders are all registered too and when KC registered it does give the owners name as the breeder, I think it’s just the main breeders do all the business side of it.
But there is and has been something not sitting right for me with the sheer number of litters produced so I’m going to go back to contacting breeders from champdogs and kennel club and make enquiries.

Are they a pedigree breed OP?

Be very very wary of any breeder who has multiple litters at the same time, especially if they are known show dog breeders.

The reason they have 2 litters is because they have a no1 "best" bitch and a no2 bitch and they select the "best" pups to register as born from no1 bitch.

They do this to make their breeding line look aesthetically better but it means you don't know the true bloodline DNA of your pup.

I think you're probably right in revisiting what's available. KC registration isn't really a Mark of anything other than the litter is on their register. It doesn't matter if there are congenital defects or the breeder is "questionable". Tbh, it's really just a money making exercise and a central record. Depending on the breed you're looking at there may be breed websites set up that do the exact same thing - I've got whippets and the whippet breed archive website is excellent for that kind of thing.

Can I be nosy and ask what breed it is you're looking for?

Have you contacted the actual breed club especially if they’re saying don’t pay more than £2.5k (hopefully their members will be following this advise) and asked if they know of any up coming litters?
The breeder of our current dog is the equivalent to God in the in breed club, she only has two bitches and breeds 1 litter every couple of years and rarely sells to mere mortals like me most go to show homes but mine was thought unlikely to be suitable for the show ring. Our dog is exactly as described on various websites and in the guide to his breed book (probably because he breeder wrote it) he arrived exceedingly well socialised and is the easiest dog we’ve ever owned I’d like to say it’s my amazing training but I suspect it’s his great start in life. A good start in life is so important if you have any doubts don’t do it it’s not worth it just to save yourself some money.
I’ve not heard great things about KC assured breeders scheme from what I understand it’s fairly meaningless.
Out of curiosity what breed is it?

FrangipaniBlue,
Yes I see your point and agree with you but OP isn’t looking to show or breed from what I can gather .
However I think it is very important that you should know the background of any pup ( breed ) and see the mother and father if possible .

IseeScottishhills,
What breed do you have ?

I don't think it makes a difference what the perspective owners are looking to do with the pup. They may initially not choose to show or breed but change their mind later down the line and at £2.5k I'd expect a top class pup who has been socialised and is pretty much bomb proof,

As I said previously, I'm not against breeding as a business as long as it's undertaken ethically, above board and with the ultimate aim of improving bloodlines and producing quality dogs, rather than a commercial enterprise with profit at the heart of everything.

It’s a golden retriever we’re looking at. I’ve had the KC names for both planned parents, seen their health checks, DNA tests and looked back at the lines of pedigree.
I contacted the breeder club over 12 months ago and didn’t have much luck but I will try again. We’re not looking to show, just a family pet with a good temperament.
I’ve heard lots of stories about kennel club so am under no illusions that that means it’s a good pup but I also want to ensure any pup I get is KC registered to ensure the bitch isn’t overbred.
I’ve only seen photos and videos of the bitch and sire, the sires don’t live with the family but they use a handful depending if going for working or showline. But again I take on the point made by a PP about mixing the gene pool up.

Have you been able to see the coefficient of inbreeding percentage? Might be worth a look if they keep pups from occasional litters and use the same stud dogs over and over.

I'd definitely be wary of a Goldie with a high coefficient. It definitely impacts their temperament in my opinion. I've seen the most beautiful retrievers with a real nasty streak that were really only suitably for proper working homes rather than domestic settings. Out of interest were you considering a working line or a show line?

My aunt had a GR who looked lovely, but was very bitey. I grew up with three (lovely and obedient) GSDs and I would've played dentists with them rather than have stroked the GR.

@undermycatsthumb

This is a really interesting question as one of the breeders that was recommended to me is also a commercial enterprise albeit I think they have 3-4 litters a year. Also I can see from their FB page the puppies are in kennels rather than in the home which really put me off. But they come very highly recommended, people wax lyrical about their dogs' temperaments, go back for second and third dogs... I'm some way off actually getting a dog but not really sure whether to rule them out or not.

I got my Labrador from a farm (a proper farm not a puppy farm)the parents were working dogs and slept in a shed. My dog has the nicest temperament, was well socialised and slotted in beautifully to family life. No medical issues either.

I wouldn't discount tbh

Our breeder didn’t own the father I understand that this isn’t a bad thing in fact the opposite. I was shown pictures of him, his show record, pedigree and the results of various health tests recommended by the breed club and I was also given the contact details of his owner and I could have gone to meet him but I saw little point as I’m no expert on the breed unlike the breeder who is so it seemed reasonable to trust her judgement. My dog has a great temperament now nearly 10 he has never had a days illness in his life I understand from people I meet much more in the know than I am that he is a fab example of the breed; his litter mates won the utility group section at Crufts.
I recently contacted the breeder and she said if she had another litter and I was looking for another dog she’d happily sell me another one. I’ve no idea how much she charges but if you get a happy healthy well socialised puppy that’s a good example of the breed both physically and mentally that’s had all the necessary health screening tests and is likely to have many healthy years ahead of it and the breeder has taken the time to socialise it well prior to your purchasing then if you pay £2.5-3k then maybe you should It could view it as money well spent and hopefully save you money in the long term.