What should I do when dogs approach mine

[WiganNorthWest]

This is a bit similar to a thread from a few days ago but slightly different situation.
I’ve had a rescue lab x staffie for about a year, he is quite fear aggressive around other dogs. We’ve taken him to obedience classes which he was fine with as the other dogs were on leads/a few metres away from him, and he is much better at walking past dogs in the street since we’ve been counter conditioning.
The problem is when off lead dogs approach him (he is always on a lead). We try to walk in quiet areas and avoid dogs when we see them, and call to the other owners asking them to call their dogs back. It’s fine most of the time, but sometimes dogs approach anyway (grrrr). When dogs get in his space he lies down, growls, whines, lunges, snaps and we pull him away by the lead. Once he was approached by 3 smaller dogs and lunged towards them and I dropped the lead and tripped (was standing on uneven surface). I didn’t really see what happened but he was off lead with them and was either snapping or trying to pin one down or just sniffing-he didn’t bite and I think he would have had time if I didn’t grab him. Another time a dog approached and they had a scuffle-but again no dog cried out in pain and there was no actual biting (my dog had saliva on his neck)-I’m not sure if he could have managed a bite if he hadn’t been pulled away. He’s 9 and had 1 owner before us and no history of biting, and was at the rescue centre for 2 months where he was walked in battersea park and apparently met dogs sometimes and snapped at off lead dogs but never bit. When we’d had him a couple of weeks he bit my husband (redirected and broke the skin) when he pulled him away from a dog in the dark. This was understandable and just down to fear.
Whenever a dog approaches I’m scared he will bite And he is quite a powerful dog, so I always shorten the lead and walk as far in the opposite direction as I can. Sometimes he is lying down so I end up dragging him. When dogs are this close he ignores treats. Sometimes he doesn’t lie down or growl just stares at them so I wonder if he’s just curious and I’m making him think it’s something to be scared of when I tighten the lead and dive into a bush. Should I loosen the lead or drop it (it’s normally a long line and we are in a field). People often say that their dog is much less aggressive off lead/is only leash reactive but I don’t know if this is the case with mine. He has met friends/dog trainers dogs by carefully introducing them after parallel walking for a few mins until he’s calmed down, so I don’t know if he’d just greet dogs calmly off lead/on a loose long line but I don’t want to test this theory in case he does end up attacking a dog. We’ve muzzled him a few times but the rescue centre never recommended it and even after introducing it slowly and positively he doesn’t like wearing it and it seems to make him more anxious-and I’m concerned he could still hurt a tiny dog.
This is long-but basically my question is does anyone have any suggestions of the best way to handle a friendly off lead dog approaching my fear aggressive on lead dog?

If he bites he has to wear a muzzle, it's just not worth it to have something happen. Generally people tend to avoid muzzled dogs or kept their dogs away. You can get those yellow leads/ collars that say nervous.

I'd muzzle him and test him off lead rather than long lead. How is his recall ?

Here's the lead

Worth seeking out a good behaviourist. For now you must prevent this happening. Don’t walk where you will be faced with off lead dogs like this.

Think we will keep going with the muzzle and hope he gets used to it as I agree it’s not worth the risk. I’ve just been in 2 minds as he tries to paw it off every few steps and we walk in quiet places-we walk for about 1.5 hours a day over 2 walks and see dogs maybe twice a week (including in the distance) and have off lead dogs approaching maybe every couple of months (and they’ve only come within biting distance of him twice in the last year-most approaching dogs see his body language and back off). So he’d be wearing a muzzle with no dogs around 99% of the time. We asked the rescue if he needed muzzling and they said no and acted like it was a bit of a silly question-and this was a large reputable rescue that has qualified behaviourists (which we spoke to after he bit my husband, which they didn’t think was too concerning given the circumstances) and they do rehome lots of dogs that they do recommend muzzling.

We got a staffie/lab from a rescue as well and everything you say about reactions to other dogs has made me feel a bit more normal (thank you)

We have a red lead and collar. If the other person cannot control their dog when I’ve made it very clear he may be reactive that’s not my problem.
We like to give lots of praise keeping and keep a j shape on the lead. We also do not take him places he cannot walk away from oncoming dogs and we always like to give him the option because sometimes he does want to interact so he will and if he doesn’t he can change the direction of the walk.

We saw a behaviourist for our dog who was very frightened of other dogs. She said to give a treat at every sight of a dog, to gradually desensitise. Try and keep some contact with dogs, but at a distance.
If a dog is coming too close, don’t be afraid to shout at the owner to call their dog back.
The yellow lead helps too. We have that one. Most people don’t see it, but it makes me feel better when I’m asking them to keep their dog back!

We have a similar quandary. Our rescue is a similar mix with similar fears. She will show excitement and interest when she sees other dogs but I'm not sure I want to see what she would do given free rein.
Last week we were walking past a house when a little JRT came flying out, ran into my daughters legs and had a go at my dog but kept a distance. My dog seemed almost bemused but after 30 seconds (could have been less, felt like longer!) barked and lunged.
Off lead dogs really worry me. Like you, we walk when it's quiet and use places I know we can pass others with a wide berth but how do you ever make the next step?
No advice but watching with interest.

I’m not sure there’s really a solution-I just wish people kept their dogs under control then it wouldn’t be an issue. I may get a behaviourist but I’ve seen one with a previous rescue for reactivity and spoke to the ones at the rescue centre and they all seem to give the same advice as I see online which is useful but not always practical-giving treats when you see a dog and working at the threshold distance. This works well in theory and on pavements when dogs are on lead and we can control how far away they are and my dog can now walk past dogs at a couple of meters with no problem. But it’s an issue when dogs come within his threshold distance-he flips out and won’t learn or accept treats if they are too close. Not sure what a behaviourist could reccomend here apart from avoid these situations. But on balance I think my dog is happier running through fields and woods and having the occasional dog encounter (he doesn’t seem phased after and carries on with his walk but I do worry it will set back his training) than just being walked on pavements which he doesn’t like as much.

Out of interest does anyone know the legalities surrounding what would happen if my on lead dog bit an off lead dog? Would I be responsible for vet fees (would this go to court) or could I be charged with having a dangerously out of control dog? My insurance doesn’t cover third party vet fees because we told them he has shown aggression towards dogs-so is it usually the case that if a dog gets bitten the owner of the dog that bites is always responsible?
What if a muzzle came off in a fight/dog was injured by a muzzled dog?

I’d hate to be responsible for any dog getting injured, but it does seem to me that my dog being on lead is keeping him under control, and if owners let their dogs off lead and can’t recall them they are responsible for any injuries the dog comes by-is this a stupid view or supported by law?

@Catlitter1

We got a staffie/lab from a rescue as well and everything you say about reactions to other dogs has made me feel a bit more normal (thank you)

We have a red lead and collar. If the other person cannot control their dog when I’ve made it very clear he may be reactive that’s not my problem.
We like to give lots of praise keeping and keep a j shape on the lead. We also do not take him places he cannot walk away from oncoming dogs and we always like to give him the option because sometimes he does want to interact so he will and if he doesn’t he can change the direction of the walk.

I don't want to derail but afaik it's a yellow lead for reactive dogs. I honestly wouldn't recognise a red lead as a 'signal' at all.

I find shouting an swearing at the other owner to keep their dog away from mine works well. Two of my dogs are friendly, but even friendly dogs will be reactive on lead. I am pretty sure as long as yours are on lead (not an extendable) they are classed as under control, whereas an dog off lead is not under control, so if a fight or bite happens, I think the blame is with the off lead owner.

@Overdueanamechange

I find shouting an swearing at the other owner to keep their dog away from mine works well. Two of my dogs are friendly, but even friendly dogs will be reactive on lead. I am pretty sure as long as yours are on lead (not an extendable) they are classed as under control, whereas an dog off lead is not under control, so if a fight or bite happens, I think the blame is with the off lead owner.

Hmm he’s normally on a long line which we gather up and hold at short lead length if a dog approaches-so it would be hard to prove he was on a short lead. Hopefully it won’t come to that.

It’s just so so annoying that people let their dogs come up-I’m sure the casual “he’s just a friendly puppy” owners would be annoyed if their dog got bitten after coming up to my on lead dog and ignoring his very clear warnings to go away. But I’m not convinced it would be my dog’s or my fault if they got bitten in this situation.
I had one of those yellow leads with my last dog and I’m not sure they are that useful-normally we only have a problem with dogs running over from a distance too great for the owner to read the lead. By the time the owner is in reading distance of the lead their dog is on top of mine! And I think the etiquette of yellow lead=nervous dog is lost on people that can’t seem to understand that their dog shouldn’t approach a dog on a lead and especially not when the owner of an on lead dog does a u turn and is clearly trying to avoid them.

You're definitely the one in the right in these situations, your dog is under control by being on a lead.
I know you've said it's not worked great for you in the past but I would definitely still get one of the yellow leads that say nervous on them. There are a lot of people that will ignore it or not know what it's for but equally there will be a lot who do recognise yellow as anxious and keep their dogs away so it's worth it even just for the few.

Also, dogs can sense when you're nervous, it's easier said than done but you do sound anxious about being on walks and potentially meeting off lead dogs etc (which is understandable) but you need to try and stay calm in these situations, let the dog know that you're not worried so they don't need to be. Don't tighten the lead, as this just tells the dog aswell that you're nervous so they need to protect you.

Muzzling can make dogs more anxious/more reactive especially if yours isn't getting on well with it. If you genuinely feel it's the only option then of course use it but if you don't have to, I wouldn't. Your dog is on a lead, don't be afraid to shout to other owners when their dogs are off lead that yours is reactive so to please keep them away.

I may be wrong (and I'm sure someone will correct me) but I believe legally your dog would be classed as under control here, if it's an off lead dog that has ran up to your on lead dog, the responsibility in that situation lies with the off lead dog owner as it was their dog that wasn't being controlled

@ThePricklySheep

We saw a behaviourist for our dog who was very frightened of other dogs. She said to give a treat at every sight of a dog, to gradually desensitise. Try and keep some contact with dogs, but at a distance. If a dog is coming too close, don’t be afraid to shout at the owner to call their dog back. The yellow lead helps too. We have that one. Most people don’t see it, but it makes me feel better when I’m asking them to keep their dog back!

We do try and keep a distance and always give treats-it’s just impossible to keep a distance when a dog runs over to us and I’m not sure if a behaviourist would have any other advice. We also always call to owners or one of us will stay with dog behind a gate or something and other one will go and explain to owners to keep their dogs away as we go past. Most people can call their dogs back when we ask, but some can’t and this is where we have the problem. I just find it bizarre that dogs with such bad recall are off lead, and even stranger that the dogs still come right up to my dog and start sniffing or trying to play and seem unable to read his body language which is clearly saying go away/is aggressive.

I’d be interested to know if anyone has ever worked with a behaviourist and got to the point where a previously fear reactive dog is now able to tolerate strange dogs running up into their face/sniffing them/bouncing on them. I’ve always thought that this was an unrealistic goal and the best a behaviourist could do is get a dog to ignore/walk past other dogs (my dog can normally walk past other dogs as long as they are a couple of metres away). All the training we’ve done has relied on getting my dog to focus on us and ignore other dogs which is useful sometimes but not very useful if they approach him closely.

Yeah I just meant don’t choose to go in too close too soon. I appreciate you can’t control other dogs.

Dogs that can’t be called back is really crap and unusual in my limited experience. Can you throw them a treat or alternatively just walk somewhere a bit less wild where they might be under better control? I’ve also not held back from grabbing another dog’s collar and delivering it back to the owner. Scares the life out of me and you need to hold your own dog as well so it’s a bit of a manoeuvre. I also gradually said hello to other dogs we saw regularly and explained the situation. Our dog would be fed treats by those owners and is now comfortable with those dogs. It all helps.

Ours is now mostly ok. She’ll jump at 1/20 I’d say.

If an off lead dog approaches your dog on a lead and your dog bites then it's the off lead dog at fault as that will be the dog deemed as not in control.

Teach a "lets go" which is a u turn and walk away from the approacing dog. Teach this away from the dogs to start with so do a u turn slide your hand down the lead and reward as he turns towards you. Make it a fast fun movement.

Also teach an emergence treat feast so if you are passing a dog too close have a lot of the best treats on his nose so he can walk past them

If you are going to offer treats to counter condition you must offer the treats AFTER your dog has seen the oncoming dog and stop immediately the dog is out of sight. This can be hard in an area where there are multipy dogs so you may need to find a quieter walking area.

Hi OP, I've had to muzzle my dog for the last couple of years, it took months for her to get used to it, at first she used to paw at it constantly, drop and roll and refuse to walk and just looked miserable. Now she happily walks and run while wearing it, most of the times. If there are a lot of dogs around she gets anxious and starts pawing and rolling again.

I should like to add that my dog wearing a muzzle sadly doesn't help with some dog owners, who insist that their dog is friendly and let it come right up to my dog's face. Some people just don't get it.

Following with interest. I have an adoptee, a different breed but similar problems. Mine is always on a lead and always will be when out. At first he was growling at snarling at any other dogs. I tried offering treats but he wasn't fussed and instead I've found nice scratching behind his ears (he loves!) and a bit of cuddly fuss works well, so now we can happily walk past or near other dogs on leads. I also thought I was getting anxious around other dogs and passing that feeling on so I made an effort not to do that.
So now we only have a problem when other dogs off lead come running over. If I see in advance I ask the owner to call it away, but sometimes they are too far to hear me and/or the dog doesn't listen, this really annoys me! If you dog isn't immediately callable then don't have it off a lead!