Jealous of “normal” dog owners

[Ginnywoofly]

Anyone else with a reactive dog sometimes resent it and feel really jealous of owners of “normal” social dogs? I love my dog and he is perfectly behaved at home but can be very reactive (lying down, growling, lunging) when we see other dogs. We have done 1:1 training and are trying to countercondition with treats but I don’t have much hope that we’ll make much progress as he’s walked by other family members quite often who are less committed to training than me, and we are so often approached by off lead dogs/see dogs unexpectedly on walks (we try to walk in quiet areas but most places seem to be busy in lockdown) that we lose all progress as soon as a dog comes up in his face and scares him. I’m always stressed walking him, I don’t think he’d bite as he’s been close enough a few times and just snapped as we pull him away but it is a worry. Got him from battersea in March a few days before the lockdown and they didn’t reccomend muzzling and said they had seen a huge improvement in his reactivty during his time there but we’ve not seen much progress. We did rush into getting him a bit as we wanted a dog and thought the rescues would shut due to covid (we got him the weekend before first lockdown) so felt we had to choose a dog that weekend or or for months (we had been looking at rescue dogs for 4 months previously after our last rescue died just hadn’t found the right one). We took him the same day we first saw him as battersea was closing to visitors the next day. We love him and are 100%committed and won’t give him up, and have experience with reactive rescues. Just wanted to avoid it this time around and sometimes find myself browsing rescue centres looking for other dogs we could have got then feeling guilty! And feel very jealous of friends dogs and perfectly behaved dogs we see walking. Anyone relate? Or can anyone reassure me with their experience of successfully retraining a reactive dog?

Oh 100% the envy is real I day dream about being able to let mine rub along the beach, or you know... Just walk up the street. To go into a pub after a Sunday walk (non covid obviously...) and have a meal on the terrace in the sunshine with my darling lying by my feet. Rather than frothing at the mouth as she tries to go for the Labrador thats had the nerve to sit at the table next to us

I don't have much to add apart from remember it's more stressful for them than for us, so I try to feel sympathy instead of frustration. If your family members aren't as on board as you are, stop letting them take him out. The training needs to be consistent. And also time will help. Whether its the training taking effect or just the dog aging who knows but mine has definitely chilled a little. The above is still a pipe dream but not all walks end in tears anymore

We muzzle ours and it made such a difference to my confidence which in turn had a positive impact on my dog. I think it also says a lot to other dog owners. It says "my dog isn't friendly, keep back" and it also says "I'm trying my best to keep everyone healthy and safe".

Have you looked into the leads and harnesses which say "reactive dog" or "no dogs" to help communicate with other dog walkers to stop their dogs approaching?

Mine's not as reactive as that...but she can be tricky and unpredictable.. had her from a puppy, was well socialised ,did training classes... and then after her second season became reactive. Gradually her hormones settled (and now spayed) but she can either see another dog and be beautifully behaved.. or she can be a demon..and I have not been able to suss out any pattern to it.
She's worst on lead.. she has to get the first word in (a growly word!) . Some dogs she is fine with.. she has a best friend she can run with, chase and be chased and it's lovely... others she hates on sight. She's also a dog who needs a decent off lead run every day and as a result I spend a fair amount of time in very deserted countryside where I can scan the horizon for dogs and take avoidant action! She doesn't bite but she will run past them growling which is scary for others :(

I do 'see dog at distance, rapid feed treats til she can't see them' then stop once out of sight and it does help massively but sometimes she's instantly over the threshold and it doesn't work.

At home she is an absolute dream dog. We did all the 'right' things with her as a puppy and there was no sign she would become reactive at all. I joined the ReactiveDogsUK group and there are SO many reactive dogs out there.. for a million reasons or none. Also great advice so I'd recommend it :)

But yes it sucks... I'd love to be able to let her run freely in a busy park and feel secure that she wouldn't scare anyone .

@Saviouronthreelegs
@saviouronthreelegs
@saviouronthreelegs
Thanks that helps-you’re right it’s much more stressful for him and I always try to remember it’s not his fault/he’s not being “bad” he’s just the product of poor socialisation. It can just be a bit overwhelming when we have a bad day but 90% of our walks are fine. And luckily he doesn’t have separation anxiety so he can at least be left when we go to the pub (eventually). It’s just much easier for DP or DC to walk him often as it gets them out (home school and wfh) and I go out to work. I’ve got him a muzzle and have been slowly introducing it to him (he now comes running over for a treat if he sees it) but when we’ve tried it on walks he starts walking really slowly and tries to take it off. Plus DP and DC are embarrassed/think it makes him look vicious/threatening. I agree 100% though that it would help my confidence and if I saw a dog in a muzzle I wouldn’t judge the owner I would think they are being responsible. But I think a lot of the public would immediately be alarmed (even though a muzzled dog is probably the safest a dog can be). Do you ever feel judged/get dirty looks when people see your dog muzzled? Not that I’m that fussed about what others think tbh. And how long did your dog take to get used to it (probably different for everyone). Oh and tried a ‘no dogs’ collar and lead years ago with another rescue but I found that if dogs are the running over “he’s friendly” type they are on their way over way before the owner can read the jacket/lead! and he is 9 already so hopefully will chill soon.

@Ginnywoofly I've found people keep their distance more with the muzzle (not everyone, but more) but I've actually found people to be a lot more sympathetic. Before if she was dancing around and barking and growling people would it or give funny looks, or talk as if I couldn't hear them. Now with a muzzle 90% of people give me a smile. She is a sighthound though and so wearing a muzzle isn't necessarily a violence thing and people are more used to seeing sighthounds muzzled

I do get a lot of comments from little children, interestingly. I think especially at the moment as we get lots of "why is she wearing a mask mommy/daddy?" And the responses given are very interesting and mixed!
I think it also depends on area. Where we lived previously we felt a bit more judged (and once had a last start screaming as we walked past and DDog wasn't even reacting!) Whereas our new village is much more doggy, but countryside doggy rather than overbred over pampered types and people are far more welcoming and accepting of her foibles...

@StillMedusa
Same with the unpredictability which almost makes it harder. Some dogs he walks past no problem and some he just stares at (which DP thinks is no problem but his whole body language is so tense and he is fixated/scared). He can make friends with calm dogs if slowly introduced/parallel walked gradually closer then allowed to sniff in his own time. I just don’t know what he’d do if he was not held back from dogs he is growling and lunging at. He has no history of biting dogs that we know of (he is a nine year old rescue). People have said to just let him off around other dogs as some dogs are aggressive on lead and fine off but I’m reluctant to test this obviously as don’t want to be responsible if he did just run over and attack!
It’s reassuring to know there are loads of reactive dogs out there (although sad that there are so many stressed dogs) as we don’t see them often (probs hiding in other deserted bits of countryside) and the owners we do see are often shocked that our dog doesn’t want to greet theirs/are clearly not familiar with the concept of reactive dogs-inexperienced lockdown owners maybe?
I do feel sympathy that you got yours as a puppy and did everything right and still have a reactive dog-I think some dogs are just like that and nothing can prevent it but training may be able to help. At least our dogs are perfect at home. I’d rather deal with issues in the 2 hours we spent walking than in the 22 we are at home!

@Saviouronthreelegs hmm interesting. I think the only dogs I’ve seen muzzled are greyhounds and always assume it’s for wildlife/almost all rescue greyhounds are rehomed on the condition they are muzzled (always seems odd to me as surely not needed if they are on a secure lead and not aggressive-wildlife won’t approach them!). Ours is a staffie cross so it does immediately make him look like a dangerous dog. But I guess he will look aggressive if he’s acting aggressive/growling whether he’s muzzled or not! And most people are very understanding especially because he often looks scared (lying down, whining) and people even find it funny that a big dog lies down and cowers as their poodle puppy passes. We’ve had a few looks when he is growling/lunging but not many. And most of the dogs round here (countryside) seem to be either very well trained labs and cockers/working gun dog types or very poorly trained poodle crosses so a muzzle would stand out a bit but maybe not as much as where we used to live that was all pampered french bulldogs and chihuahuas. Definitely worth considering, but I also feel it could make him more scared/unable to defend himself and as much as I wouldn’t want any dog to get bitten it seems a bit unfair that he should have to wear a muzzle just because other people can’t keep their dogs away. But at the end of the day I want to keep all dogs safe and know that there will always be dogs with poor recall and irresponsible owners

I promise you it's like kids and the chances are you're seeing dogs on a good day or bribed to high heaven/tired etc. I know so many dog owners and only 2 are standouts in how chilled they are. Most dogs I know are hyper/reactive. Applause for you giving him a home, you saved him

Not sure there is such a thing as a secure lead where sighthounds are involved, they're absolute escape artists! So a muzzle just adds an extra layer of protection to the local wildlife in case they manage to slip their straightjacket style harness collar. They also play incredibly rough. Their idea of playing is nipping at each others haunches, necks and faces but they also have very thin skin. It's often recommended sighthounds wear muzzles when playing even if they're friendly because they can cause accidental damage.

I can see why with a staffie cross you are conscious of how it comes across, but I still think it shows a proactive owner rather than an aggressive dog. As for defending themselves, as horrified as I would be for DDog to be attacked, I feel better in the knowledge that she can't ever be accused of landing the first blow, as it were. Not that she is aggressive, just reactive. Off lead she is fine, but totally over the top and way too much for other dogs and loses all of her recall training if she sees another dog five fucking fields away

It sounds like, if you're struggling to find the trigger, you need to work with a behaviourist to identify his body language so you can learn to speak his language as it were. So with DDog, when we are walking and she sees another dog, her ears go from flat against her neck to perked up at a 45° angle. It's only a small change, but we have to be ready for it. As soon as those ears start to move, we have to redirect. So we correct the lead (only a gentle but sharp movement) and a tongue click to remind her to pay attention to us and is only. If her ears don't go flat again, I will often use squirty cheese or some kind of high value treat to get attention back to me. If she's particularly obsessed I find moving into a jog works as she gets so excited to run she loses focus on the dog for an instant. Once that connection is broken, her stress levels are reduced and we can continue as normal with lots of praise if she continues to walk forwards without turning her head to look at the other dog again.
Our flash points are slim paths where she ends up face in to another dog or when we are stationary (so a pub or zebra crossing etc).
Sometimes if she is really get up I just turn around and walk in the other direction.

Have you tried him with a adaptil collar? He sounds like he is fear reactive so some gentle hormones might be enough to make him feel more comfortable. Otherwise I have heard people recommend valerian root, I think it is? But of course I would only recommend that route with vet guidance.

It's also important to look at stress stacking, so once the dog has had a stressful experience (or exciting) it takes a certain amount of calm down time. If you carry on walking and they come across another stressed their reaction will be much higher than if it had been the first thing of the day, so sometimes the best action if youve had a stressful meet is to go home and let DDog relax. Similarly, try to wear.him out mentally before the walk. So kibble in the grass, find it games etc. That way his brain is already snoozy by the time you go on the walk rather than being on high alert.

Totally understand this OP. My 6kg fluffy dog is on more anti anxiety / anti depressant meds than most manic depressive adults. He's both fear dog aggressive and has severe separation anxiety so we can't walk him and can't leave him at home. Its been hell since he turned 6 months, he's now almost 3.

You have all of my sympathy. I get jealous of owners who complain about taking their dogs to the park on a regular basis.

Greyhounds don't have to wear a muzzle in the UK. Our rescue recommended it to start with and to keep her on a lead while we saw how she is. Also they don't play rough or regularly bite other dogs and most of them are extremely calm, gentle and non-reactive, and are not an aggressive breed at all. Just wanted to correct this piece of misinformation that leads people to think my dog might be aggressive to theirs.

I have one like this. I also bred her! Her mum is calm, reliable, an absolute gem. So to find myself with a dog who has such a high level of reactivity around other dogs was really hard at first and I struggled for a couple of years and in my darkest moments considered having her PTS! She was adequately socialised as a puppy and had positive experiences but she just hated other dogs.

Anyway she's 6 now and the absolute apple of my eye. I accepted a long time ago that she's just quirky and it wasn't anything I had done. Nor could I train her out of it and that it was just an intrinsic part of her personality. This was hard to accept at first as I'm a very experienced dog owner/trainer and thought I could change her.

However I managed to train her to focus on me and not another dog (she is very food motivated) so whenever she clocks another dog, she immediately looks to me and is given a food reward. However, I can only accomplish this if she's on the lead. I would never walk her off lead in public. She's only ever off lead in a secure/private field. I don't ever walk her right past (as in touching) distance of another dog, I have to give her space for this to work.

What she lacks in social skills, she more than makes up for in her beautiful nature with people, especially children who she adores and is exceptionally gentle with.

I guess you just have to focus on the good bits because I'm sure your dig has plenty of them

Yes I understand mine is still a bit reactive and cannot go off lead or walk with others - he was a rescue - had been in there 9 months before I took him, however, he has got alot better over the last few years and am glad I have him and am patient with him as he is doing his best - may not be same as other dogs - but it is his best. He is very sociable & loves people and the most affectionate poppet at home. I do avoid parks and woods though and we just walk around streets or go at very quiet times. I love him so much despite the challenges - I think spending 9 months in the rescue really affected him and made him insecure and when I first had him I would be in tears thinking I would have to take him back but 3 years on he is such a different boy - luckily he a terrier so if the worst comes to the worst and some off lead dog comes bounding over, I can pick mine up if necessary.

I am envious of this too. To add being reactive to other dogs she is also petrified of roads and traffic so our walks are extremely limited. Trying to find somewhere where dogs are less likely to be off lead but where there isn’t traffic is so difficult.
She’s fantastic at home though and loves playing in the garden. And we take her to the secure dog field when we can and on her ‘safe’ walks where she knows we don’t go near roads so is calmer.

@Graciebobcat

Greyhounds don't have to wear a muzzle in the UK. Our rescue recommended it to start with and to keep her on a lead while we saw how she is. Also they don't play rough or regularly bite other dogs and most of them are extremely calm, gentle and non-reactive, and are not an aggressive breed at all. Just wanted to correct this piece of misinformation that leads people to think my dog might be aggressive to theirs.

I'm talking about sighthounds not specifically greyhounds. No they don't have to wear a muzzle and no they don't ALL play like that and they don't ALL escape from their collars/harnesses. But I'm on enough sighthound groups and owned enough salukis to know how they commonly play and commonly react.

Ah. This is normal, I think.

It is so hard for anyone who has only ever had chilled, confident dogs to know the sheer grief of having one that is fearful in social situations. The loss of a whole lifestyle that you'd hoped for, replaced by solitary walks and a distance from the rest of the world.

However, for those interested in dog behaviour, there is far more to be learned from the 'problem' dogs than the easy ones. They are better teachers with weightier lesson content.

I've lost count of the posters I've seen come and go on here, offering the benefit of their wisdom but that wisdom coming from a place of only ever having had easier dogs. Even down to the language used that favours using complimentary language for non reactive dogs (gentle, sweet, calm, loving) and judgemental language for reactive ones (aggressive).

The subtle judgement of a reactive dog as a bad dog is insidious and I personally see it as an extension of this tendancy to see dogs as something other than they are. Reactivity is not an usual behaviour - it is problematic for humans living in a world with other dogs and humans but it is a perfectly natural part of a dog's behaviour repertoire. That doesn't mean we cannot work within a dog's own capability to help change the underlying emotions and, therefore, the behaviour. But it doesn't help to view reactive dogs as aberrations or damaged in some way. Some may be damaged/traumatised but most are just behaving naturally.

Unlucky typo...

Reactivity is not an usual behaviour SHOULD BE Reactivity is not an unusual behaviour

Our reactive DDog died a few weeks ago. Towards the end, he couldn't really see dogs on the other side of the street. It made walking him so much nicer again and it really made me realise how stressful it had been walking him for the last few years.

He hadn't always been reactive. He had 4 awful things happen to him one after the other that just left him terrified of other dogs. We had made amazing progress with him after the first three, and got him back to being able to be in the same space as another dog, when an exceptionally aggressive dog escaped from it's house and chased down the street behind us then sank his teeth into DDog. That was it really.

We do miss him terribly though.

I totally get what you're saying! My own dog can be reactive (though he's a LOT better than he was) and it can be incredibly stressful.

Mine became reactive after he was pinned down and bitten by two off-lead dogs while he was on his lead. He was only sixteen weeks old.

He's three now and we've worked SO hard with him. Luckily it was only dogs that were the problem (never people or traffic etc.) so we only had one "issue" to work with. He can walk past 90% of dogs now with no reaction but that 10% are still an issue and it is SO embarrassing!

@Ginnywoofly I doubt anyone's dogs 100% perfect. At least that's not what I see when I'm out. I have a reactive dog. My dogs issue is mainly with people he hates strangers getting close to me or other dogs jumping up at me. Not all dogs like to be touched off strangers. As long as your dog is OK with you and your family and muzzle when your out. It's unfair for anydog to be attacked whilst wearing a muzzle so take a big stick out with you and be prepared to use it if your dog is attacked.

Having worked with reactive dogs and owners and being the owner of a reactive dog that changed my life I hear you OP.

I strongly believe that owners do go through a period of grieving and I witness this with owners I have contact with.

They tend to start off with anger, why does my dog behave like this, what has happened to my dog

Then often "oh it will be ok I can sort this out "stage

Then to "if only he behaved like other dogs"

Doubt "There is no way I am the best owner for this dog he needs someone better than me"

Eventually getting to the "yep my dog is special and I need to work with him to make his life great" - this is when the difference is made

Owners of reactive dogs get a really hard time by the public. People who have only just meet their dog have "the answer" to the dogs problems. " you should have socialised him when he was young, he will be better off lead, just let my dog sort him out, you need to show him boundaries and who is boss!"

None of the above is true . Reactive dog owners know their dogs better than anyone.

What I see when I see a reactive dog owner is someone who cares, someone who has made major changes to their lives and their dogs live, may have spent pounds on training, will have spent hours and hours looking for solutions, hours looking at websites reading books etc. Reactive owners are dedicated, caring and AMAZING people!

What has helped some of my clients is concentrating on what your dog can do and really exploiting this.

My first reactive dog (I now actively choose to get reactive dogs but that is another thread!) would attack any dog he saw, heard, or smelt. If he could not get to it he would attack what ever was near him instead. Good points were he was pretty consistent so very easy to know what was going to happen . However he was fab and I mean fab at agility. By concentrating on what he was good at and just avoiding what he was bad at we made huge progress. Eventually we were able to complete in big competitions and he and I loved each others company.

So I would strongly recommend you find a qualified behaviourist and trainer (they will do different things) and look at what makes your dog happy , what makes you happy and really concentrate on that. Avoid triggers if you can (this can be hard to work out but behaviourist should help with this)

Maybe change your mindset from wanting to change your dog to change on working on what he is good at.

Op re reassurance yes some dogs can totally transformed some can learn more resilience but may not be as bombproof as other dogs. Whatever the outcome with your dog it is not a judgement of how you are as an owner. I do strongly recommend professional help, it can speed things up, give you a realistic plan to work through and someone to mentor you on those tough days.

Without being too gushy for MN all reactive dog owners have my huge respect and be proud of the homes you are giving to your dogs - you are the best[ smile]

I feel such empathy for you. I would describe our pup/dog (11 months) as very similar to @StillMedusa 's dog - tricky and unpredictable. I feel stressed on walks and our dog has been really growly and tried to attack numerous dogs where we live so feel like everyone knows about us but maybe that's me being paranoid.

@PollyRoulson we did have a behaviourist but I feel like they just weren't right and told us basic things to do (recall, look at me etc) which we constantly work hard on but when your dog is unpredictable ie she doesn't react to every dog, it's so hard to know what to do in the moment especially with off lead dogs running up to us - she can be polite and say hello but if the dog doesn't leave us she can start to growl and snap. I try to walk off but the dogs can often follow. I feel like it's a never ending battle of owners saying 'oh don't worry my dog is friendly' and me having to say 'it's not about your dog'

How do we get a good behaviourist without burning through £100s?
x

Cheeks4970 A behaviourist will be less about the training which it sounds like yours was and more about the emotions of your dog. So what would make your dog feel better, what situations make your dog feel bad and react etc etc. Strategies to make emotions better and strategies to get out of trouble.

Also a behavourist will not be a long term thing. A good one should set up a plan then revisit once or twice as the plan will be succesful or may need a bit of tweaking or have the options of a follow up call in the months ahead if needed.

If you want to give me a rough area I can recommend some BUT you are so right you need to get the one you gel with so chat on the phone have a zoom call to check you are on the same way length.

Get a group of behaviorists together and they may actually argue against training

Re the dont worry my dog is friendly crowd - I tend to wave as I am legging it off in the other direction with a cheery "but my dog likes to be on his own"

@PollyRoulson Thank you that's really helpful. And yes, I think you're right we had more of a trainer! Sigh. I explained to them what our issues were but they sent someone who looked like he was 12 years old. That's £150 down the drain .

Anyway, we are in south east London so suggestions are v welcome .

x

Found this thread really helpful - thanks for starting it, @Cheeks4970. Lots of interesting thoughts and as ever @PollyRoulson has a really helpful perspective on things.

You'll see from my other posts that I have a nearly one-year-old reactive border collie. I totally understand the 'grieving' you go through. I would LOVE to be able to put a lead on him and walk out the front door listening to a podcast, but at the moment his reactions to other dogs, cars and anything that moves means we just can't do that. Walking him is hard work and it always has been.

It's been a very steep learning curve but all I would say is that even in the five months we have had him we have managed to get into a bit of a routine which is really paying off. We book a secure field twice in the week and once at weekends, which means that on those days I don't have to worry at all about what he might encounter, which takes the pressure off all of us. I really recommend it as a way of reducing the mental load on the dog and you. I've now found somewhere to walk him where we rarely see anyone which means he is focussing much more on coming back to me when I ask, with lovely relaxed ears for most of the walk. Finding a fabulous dog-walker also means I have one day where she has him and walks him, which again reduces the pressure of the week.

Following Polly's advice we now crate him (and cover his crate) when we travel. He barks horribly for the first five mins, then settles down.

Overall, since we realised how stressed he was getting and cut back on pavement walks with lots of triggers he is definitely a calmer and happier dog. Of course I still allow myself to daydream that once he is 'grown-up' he will no longer be a reactive dog. But I know that isn't going to happen. But you CAN find ways to help make it easier all round. There are still moments of frustration (this weekend we saw two people on a walk; he was hysterical at the sight of both of them and neither of them had dogs!) but they are fewer and further between.

I can't wait for lockdown to life so I can try out agility/flyball with him. It might not be the answer, but I want to give it a go.

'Without being too gushy for MN all reactive dog owners have my huge respect and be proud of the homes you are giving to your dogs - you are the best[ smile]' THIS in spades. It's hard, but our dogs deserve to have us make the effort.

Another vote for a muzzle. I have a different situation, my dog is not reactive but he does have a high prey drive (sighthound) and so is always muzzled off lead at the advice of my trainer. The difference in my 'vibes/anxiety/aura' for want of better words is massive, as I know he can't do any harm or play can't get out of hand. You can't underestimate the effect of the subconscious messages you are sending your dog either in body language or voice, even when off lead but especially on lead. You will feel more calm which enables you to focus on the dog. Also, another thing I learnt from the trainer is to have a thicker skin, we all want strangers to admire our dog and it's behaviour but ultimately it's meaningless, so just don't worry what other people think about your dog wearing a muzzle. It does mean you are responsible